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FT: Frame (Twin) Early Rapide research - 1947


ClassicBiker

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VOC Member
Two things leapt out me. First the radi for the windscreen support appear to be different. I don't think it has anything to do with camera angle ect.. Second the lack of a front brake lever on the handle bars.
Steven
 

craig

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VOC Member
I am assembling the clutch on #323 and have read the clutch assembly instructions very carefully and they state -

2) Fit the shoe assembly to the clutch carrier. Do not omit the washers, C6, which lie between the shoes and pivot nuts, C5, on engines prior to 1/853. These nuts must be pulled up very tightly on the bolts, and these are best held by means of a "crow foot" spanner. When tight they must be locked by punching the bolt metal down into the slots in the nut, but before locking check that each shoe is free to rock on its pin. For later units: see (8) under "Dismantling" above.
(Note:- the bolt C4 is of high tensile steel. Ordinary mild steel bolts must not be used, and in any event the heads must not be thicker than 1/8 in. (3.17 mm), otherwise they may foul the wall of the clutch drum.)


I don't have C6 washers for #323 and need to know the dimensions of these C6 washer to assess whether I need them.

Anyone have such information on C6 washers please?

VincentC6Dimensions.jpg
 
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timetraveller

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VOC Member
I don't have a clutch early enough to have these washers but you should be able to work out what is needed by doing a dummy assembly. As I understand it you are trying to ensure that the shoes pivot nicely on their pins without undue end float and that they are centralised within the clutch drum. Note that there will be a circlip on the outer end of the pins to retain the shoes, unless the system is totally different from the later clutches. So the ID will be the same as the OD of the pins with a little clearance, the OD will be determined by the castings etc of the shoes and the thickness determined by the length of the pins and the thickness of the shoes. Even if these details are wrong a dummy assembly should show you what was intended.
 

nkt267

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VOC Member
Next time i have the clutch apart on #379 I'll take a look..the parts book does not list C6, so is C5/1 a modification of an earlier part?
 

craig

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VOC Member
I am running the early clutch drum with cast holes, but i have 5000 miles on this engine/clutch with no issues.
I am just down for Grosset electric starter fitting. The instructions are quite adamant about these washers.
Cheers
Craig
ClutchMO02.jpg
 

chankly bore

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
It would be instructive to see an original C5. Were they longer with a Seeger clip and a C6 washer? How did it differ from C5/1? My series "B" parts list doesn't show C5 or C6 and the drawings date from late 1947.
 

Bill Thomas

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VOC Member
I know, Not too much help, But I have found in early instructions, " Do not omit the washers C6, Which lie between the shoes and Pivot nuts, C5 On Engines
prior to 1/853 ", Sorry no photos. Cheers Bill.
 

vin998

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VOC Member
VOC Forum Moderator
I have an early series B engine here (lower than engine number 300) which was last run in 1967 and not been apart since then and I have just started stripping down for a rebuild. I can have a look at the clutch on it, but it may be a day or two and there is no guarantee its even the original clutch. In saying that I just removed the timing cover to find an original bronze large idler and no real evidence that the timing side has ever been disturbed.
Simon
 

Bill Thomas

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VOC Member
I have seen somewhere, That the Mk1 Clutch ony used 3 springs !!, A mod' Dave Hills told me to do, Which works on one of my Twins, But not the other !. Cheers Bill.
 

Bill Thomas

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VOC Member
It also looks like to get the shoes off, You have to undo C5 from C4 , The later type has circlips ???.
Cheers Bill.
 

vin998

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VOC Member
VOC Forum Moderator
I have an early series B engine here (lower than engine number 300) which was last run in 1967 and not been apart since then and I have just started stripping down for a rebuild. I can have a look at the clutch on it, but it may be a day or two and there is no guarantee its even the original clutch. In saying that I just removed the timing cover to find an original bronze large idler and no real evidence that the timing side has ever been disturbed.
Simon
Curiosity got to me so I just pulled the clutch. Found an early drum (photo 1) with the holes in the back and a different method of securing the shoes to the carrier which may expain what going on.
The shoes appear to be secured with a nut rather than a circlip. The nut has a thin washer / shim under the head which is what you may be refering to Craig. See photo 2.
Photo 3 shows it dismantled. The bolt is a std C4 and the pivot nut is what the clutch shoe pivots on. I suspect the shim is to stop the hex of the nut machining itself into the alloy shoe when the shoe pivots. I suspect the nut in the photo is an original C5 which was later replaced with the C5/1 & circlip.
Photo 4 & 5 are of the factory instruction sheets where they refer to this assembly.

So Craig you only need the shim / washer if you still have the earlier C5 nut arrangement and not the later C5/1 and circlip. The shim measures 1/2" id, 5/8" od and 30 thou thick.

I wll be upgrading this clutch to the later C5/1 when it goes back together.

Simon
photo 1.jpgphoto 2.jpgphoto 3.jpgphoto 4.jpgphoto 5.jpg
 

craig

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VOC Member
Thank you Simon, My B was already using C5/1 and circlips when it came apart.
I tend to read the instructions way after I complete work. So now reading thru the complete instruction there was a concern that I had screwed up as usual.
No wonder I have many miles without problems or wear on the clutch...... Dumb luck.
I am running new pieces with a cast hole drum. New are C3, C5/1, C4, 865, C20, C19, maybe more.
Thank you
Cheers
Craig
 

Len Matthews

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
While I have seen this picture before I have not had access to it at this resolution.
By enlarging (with a single click) much more detail becomes visible. There are details I have never noticed before like the headlamp mounting, the simmonds nuts on the handle bar clamps and balance beam pivot, the top girdraulic padbolts having their nuts on the back (I'm sure I fit them on the front), silvery propstand plates and lower spring cases, regulator on pillion plate. Even the engine number is legible.
What a great picture. Does anyone have similar quality pictures of the other side?
There appears to be a key protruding from the speedometer or is that an ignition switch?If so, where's the speedometer?
 

BigEd

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VOC Member
VOC Forum Moderator
I have seen somewhere, That the Mk1 Clutch ony used 3 springs !!, A mod' Dave Hills told me to do, Which works on one of my Twins, But not the other !. Cheers Bill.
Dear Bill,
I think I have read something similar. It also said that it was so light that if the cable wasn't very good the three springs couldn't overcome the friction in the cable when the clutch lever was released. I might try it sometime as it doesn't require a full strip to do.
 

Bill Thomas

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VOC Member
I tried it years ago and it was no good, But I forgot I tried it again, Till I stripped the Special and found only 3 springs !. I wondered why that clutch was so light.
As long as you have good contact between the steel plates and the primary plate, It will be fine,
Maybe fit nylon lined cable.
My steel plates are 1950, Not very good, I really should have bought new, But Too mean !.
Some days I have a lot of pain in my hands, So the lighter the better for me.
Cheers Bill.
 

Joe

Website User
Non-VOC Member
Hi, my B Model from 1948 has the very same clutch shoe pivot as on Simon`s picture.
How much play is acceptable for the clutch shoe pivot hole as I am experience clutch judder as described on page 69/70 in Paul Richard`s maintenance book. I can move the shoe sidewise about 1/8 inch.
 

Attachments

vin998

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VOC Member
VOC Forum Moderator
One theory is you need a little play to help the shoes align with the drum but I would say the amount of play you have is excessive. My Rapide shoes had that amount and used to judder a lot and I had a friend rebush them with an oilite bush and that cured the problem. He also bushed the plunger bore which can be done but one shoe needed some welding to build up the area.
 

Bill Thomas

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VOC Member
I don't think that's your problem, But I did as Simon says and used the bushes out of the cam shaft,
It should be lined up to bore the holes, But I just did it free hand and took a chance. The springs and plungers
in the shoes are a lot of the trouble, The plungers must be free and the springs at the right tension.
With the shoes on the Bike but not the plates, By turning the shaft by hand, both ways, The shoes must not touch the drum, Should be about 20 to 25 thou gap between the shoe linings and the drum.
If you put the Bike in gear and move the shoes clock wise and anti clock by holding the nine pins,
You can see how the shoes move to contact the drum.
Good Luck, Bill.
 

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