Thinking about a 1952 Black Shadow

[Ducdude]

Thank you Dave...One way on another I know a Vincent is in my future...

BTW the sooner the forum knows this the better I am a terrible typist and speller often my posts take the Rosetta stone to decipher...My apologies in advance..

Ciao,
Ducdude

 

[timetraveller]

As for books, I suggest that you email either the Vincent Spares Company, orders@vincentspares.co.uk or Vin-Parts International, russell.kemp@btconnect.com requesting a list of potentially useful books. Neither will either cheat you or try to sell you something which is no use. The order in which I would place their priority would be 'Spare Parts List', 'Riders Handbook', 'Vincent Motorcycles' by Paul Richardson, 'Know Thy Beast' by Eddie Stevens, 'Forty Years On' and 'Another Ten Years'. I have not checked the exact titles so there might be some minor errors there. All of them are useful but the first four will allow you to get the bike into good order and enjoyable. The journey will not be without pain but in the end will be very rewarding.

 

[Albervin]

Hey Dude, the timing cover is on the RHS of the engine. Unfortunately on a standard Vincent that requires removal of the exhaust system. You are looking for little bits of metal, broken teeth and generally whether the
wheels go around & round with the cams. You can also see the cam followers & pushrods as well as the valve lifting mechanism. It can be very enlightening. The only "special" tool you may need is to remove the exhaust nuts. Be aware you will also need to eventually buy a full kit of British tools if you only have Japanese & Italian stuff now. Luckily BSF & BSW spanners are available on the internet & quality engineering stores. BA spanners are a little bit more scarce but can still be found. Most special tools are available from Vincent specialists. I have found a set of Metrinch sockets to be totally invaluable with my United Nations of machines (English, German, Italian & Japanese)....

 

[Ducdude]

There is no mention of the UFM number on the headstock. It could be a mix of 2 or 3 bikes depending on what that number is. Ideally it would be good if you could remove the timing cover for a look
inside. It would be good if they could bring a kickstart with them to check compression too.
They had Amal carbs so not sure why you think they are incorrect.
Check to see if there is any oil in the tank, if not then it is probably all in the sump. Remove it before trying to kick start it & add fresh 20-50W.
"You meet the nicest people on a Vincent"!!

Hi Albervin etal,

I just got back from my first hands on visit of the sleeping Black Shadow. I have a few more data points I wold like to shair with you all.

The UFM on the head stock is correct for the engine. RC-11422B/B.
The rear frame is incorrect RC/1/6659. (so 2/3rds of a Black Shadow, 1/3rd Comet)

The timing cover was not removed as I was not permitted to lay a spanner on the bike but it looks like it has never been off as the screws were not buggered up .

Question:
Where can I get a proper exhaust pipe wrench to do the job if need be . Would a BMW air head exhaust nut wrench work?

About the missing kick starter, the entire kick start shaft is missing there is nothing sticking out of the case where the kicker would go. There was what the looks like a bronze bushing left in the holethe bushing was all busted up.

There is evidence that the bike was crashed on this side damaging the handle bar, foot peg, shifter, seat, rear fender, splash guard on the front brake (now missing), and the piece of tin that covers the very front of the engine (it too is completely missing) and the kick start lever as it is not there as well. The bike seems to shift ok though all the gears.

Question:
What holds the kicker shaft in the tranny and if there is no shaft in the tranny can I assume that the transmission will have to come out to be fixed? Is this difficult to do?

Still on the transmission when spun via the rear wheel there is a good bit of oil that leaks out from behind the trans side cover. (not out the shaft hole) I am thinking there was a good bit of internal damage here and that there was an attempt to remove cover as the heads of the screws were buggerd up.. What is the feeling as to what will it take to fix this trans?

See picture..

The Amals do not look the proper model for a shadow and not being good with bit stuff yet I took some pictures to see if any could identify them..

See picture


There was oil in the tank in both the engine oil tank and the transmission oil. The tranny oil looked more or less at a good level.

Question:
How do you check the engine oil level I could see oil in the bottom of the tank but I did not see a dip stick like on the tranny?

Question:
What type of gear oil is used in the transmission? It smelled just like engine oil not like the gear oil common in say BMW airhead transmissions from the 60’s and 70’S.

Question:
Where is the engine oil drain plug??

Question:
With the listed damage above would the value still be in the $20-30K range for a 52 Black Shadow …Or does that pretty much not matter for Vincents?

Much Thanks to you all As I delve in to this new world...

Cheers,
Duc

 

[bmetcalf]

Where can I get a proper exhaust pipe wrench to do the job if need be . Would a BMW air head exhaust nut wrench work?

See http://www.vincentownersclub.co.uk/links/browselinks.php?c=31 also Coventry Spares in Massachusetts http://www.thevincent.com/vin-suppliers.html Also, that site has a lot of info.

About the missing kick starter, the entire kick start shaft is missing there is nothing sticking out of the case where the kicker would go. There was what the looks like a bronze bushing left in the holethe bushing was all busted up.

Question:
What holds the kicker shaft in the tranny and if there is no shaft in the tranny can I assume that the transmission will have to come out to be fixed? Is this difficult to do?

The sector gear on the shaft traps it inside the cover. The trans doesn't have to come out. Taking off the pipes and the cover allows a new shaft to go on. The trans has a door behind the clutch and you do not have to split the cases.

Still on the transmission when spun via the rear wheel there is a good bit of oil that leaks out from behind the trans side cover. (not out the shaft hole) I am thinking there was a good bit of internal damage here and that there was an attempt to remove cover as the heads of the screws were buggerd up.. What is the feeling as to what will it take to fix this trans?

Trans itself might be OK.


The Amals do not look the proper model for a shadow and not being good with bit stuff yet I took some pictures to see if any could identify them..

Those are later Amal concentrics MK 1, many riders are happy with them. New proper Shadow carbs are available from Burlen or the VOCSC.



View attachment 690
There was oil in the tank in both the engine oil tank and the transmission oil. The tranny oil looked more or less at a good level.

Question:
How do you check the engine oil level I could see oil in the bottom of the tank but I did not see a dip stick like on the tranny?

Can you see the flat plate crossbar in the tank? If you can, it is a qt low.

Question:
What type of gear oil is used in the transmission? It smelled just like engine oil not like the gear oil common in say BMW airhead transmissions from the 60’s and 70’S.

Many use hypoid gear oil, but there is some concern about it eating bronze bushings.

Question:
Where is the engine oil drain plug??

On the left side, accessed through a hole in the front engine plate. If the bike has been sitting, oil from the tank will probably have drained past the oil pump and you will get a lot out.

Question:
With the listed damage above would the value still be in the $20-30K range for a 52 Black Shadow …Or does that pretty much not matter for Vincents?

Yes, what we can see in the pix is pretty minor, although a new kick lever isn't too cheap. Here is a source: http://www.mikesindianparts.com/COMING VINCENT PARTS.htm

If you get it, be sure to read Richardson, the Owners Manual, and KTB thoroughly before tearing into the bike.

 

[ernie]

For starters, here is the spare parts book for you:
http://www.voc.uk.com/sparesdraw.php. The other books listed above are also essential reading - in due course.

Tools on page M033 but the tool for the exhaust nuts is K3 - use with a rubber mallet to remove if tight, but never use a mallet to tighten them up.

Starter bits are on page M010; only the outer cover needs to be removed to repair. The gear box oil always drips a little, especially if it is over filled - it only needs to just touch the bottom of the dipstick - despite what the book says. However there may be a leak from the oil seal G24 on page M032. The screws do get mangled cos they are tight, use an impact tool with care to remove them and get some new ones. If the gears select OK then the box is probably OK, it is pretty tough. The magneto cowl at the front of the engine is FT 163 on page M032.

Amal Mk1 Concentrics are what you have, are a common fitting and can work well.

There is no standard dipstick for engine oil. Oil should be above the cross bar you can see below the filler neck.

Engine oil is satisfactory in the gear box but some folks use a light gear oil.

The crank-case drain plug is under (below and outside) the primary drive cover - LHS of the engine. The oil tank is drained by undoing the banjo bolt at the bottom end of the A66AS pipe (feed) - page M018. When the A44AS at the top end of the feed pipe is undone, a clever stop valve retains the oil in the tank. The gear box drain is A26 on page M032.

In my worthless opinion the prices you quote are fair but you know what they say - caveat emptor and if it aint broke it's only a matter of time.

Hope that helps and my warmest encouragement to you.

Ernie

 

[Albervin]

Dude, I have no idea what Shadows actually sell for in the USA but here in Australia a really good one (i.e. it looks good & goes well) will fetch in excess of $70,000 on the open market. A very nice D Shadow that needed some work has just sold for $55,000. A major rebuild here can cost up to $15,000. All prices are Aussie dollars. That makes "your" bike excellent value at $20,000 (USD) and good value at $30,000 (USD). I guarantee that if you don't buy it then someone will!!

 

[stumpy lord]

Hi,
as well as all the reading matter recomended, do get a copy of the work shop notes, available from the club spares company, with that andall the other books you will soon be able to strip your own beast down to its last nut and bolt , and be able to put it back together again.
To me it looks to be in a remarkable good condition considering how long it has been stored.Better to buy a machine like that, rather one that you have been told it has been rebuilt with no expense spared, to only find out at a later date that it is a load of junk.
regards stumpy lord

 

[Ducdude]

Thanks for your pointers Stumpy, What type of data is supplied in the work shop notes?

The condition of the bike really is not a problem, what is a concern is the crash damage on the RH side and the owners denial to comment on it..He had said his parents pulled the kicker off and had hidden it from him so he would not ride it. While it is clear it had been crashed and the kicker and the shaft were busted out of the transmission.

Still 40 years of sitting is a long time..

Cheers,

Duc

 

[stumpy lord]

kickstartshaft

Hi,
I suppose the best descrition of the work shop notes is, that it is Vincents version of haynes manuals but 100% better. They give very detailed information on stripping, building, fitting,adjusting, and timing on all aspects of Vincent twins and singles. That includes the gear box,the clutch, the forks etc etc. For example instruction sheet number3b has nine A4 sheets of instructions on the gearbox.
When I bought my twin I was at the time living in north yorkshire, and the machine was in the east end of London.So a mate of mine , a guy called Mike chadwick,and I came down over night and drove it back home to yorkshire, on passing Stevenage Mike insisted that we called in at the works and purchase amongst other things a copy of the workshop notes, which over the years has made understanding the beast a lot easier.
must go now and get sorted out for my trip to the french rally.
regards,
stumpy lord (norman lord)
I dout very much that the kickstart shaft has been smashed off due to an accident, for that to have happend I would expect to see a completly smashed kickstart cover, the shaft is only a couple of inches long, and has a toothed quadrent pressed on to the inboard end of the shaft, I bet that is missing as well. That part has been removed by its owner for whatever reason.
hope this helps, back to my packing,
norm