Rapide/ Black Shadow wanted.
- Thread starter Martin Hand
- Start date
I have always assumed that “matching numbers” implies that the motorcycle in question still retains the main component parts that it had when it first left the factory, and by component parts I specifically mean those parts that have numbers stamped onto them by a Vincent factory worker, and for clarity, that does not include a factory worker or workers that continued to have an interest in Vincent motorcycles after the “Vincent Works” ceased to exist.
I have a matching numbers Black Shadow, and a Rapide assembled from parts so that nothing matches but the case halves. Certainly the numbers have no bearing on the riding experience, but that's not the appeal - it's the history, which has been better preserved in the matching numbers bike. It's a time capsule from the date of production.
Does intangible history matter? To many, not at all. But the idea is common in the antiques world - Napoleon's sword is worth more than its identical counterpart owned by an anonymous lieutenant, even if the latter slices better.
If I were buying a Vincent today, I would probably not pay the (large) premium matching numbers demand. Cost vs. benefit, always a subjective call. But it may be different if you care about future value - I expect (without having studied it) that matching numbers vintage bikes and cars will tend to appreciate more than others.
Does intangible history matter? To many, not at all. But the idea is common in the antiques world - Napoleon's sword is worth more than its identical counterpart owned by an anonymous lieutenant, even if the latter slices better.
If I were buying a Vincent today, I would probably not pay the (large) premium matching numbers demand. Cost vs. benefit, always a subjective call. But it may be different if you care about future value - I expect (without having studied it) that matching numbers vintage bikes and cars will tend to appreciate more than others.
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The year is 2124 and your current neighbor's great grandson has a rare gasoline ration card, and for some reason wants to own a Vincent. Since few people in 2124 either have ration cards or want old gasoline-powered vehicles, prices haven't kept up with inflation. Still, given that he feels the "need" to own a Vincent, is he more likely to want a bitza ("because the numbers don't make it ride any better"), or will he spend more to have a matching numbers machine that he can proudly point to? I strongly suspect the latter. Replace 2124 with 2034 and I think the answer will be the same.
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As the generations change, as they are.......matching numbers wont mean much to anyone, because all the long standing knowledge from the likes of folk on here will not be of great interest to them.......all these fine details will fade, the fakes from the real bikes will not be an outstanding feature.......only the appeal of the actual machine itself......Its actually happening now to older riders who have always wanted a Vincent and now buying them........from the ones I've seen, these folk do little homework to find proper and important detail.......thus they buy a "Matching numbers bike" only I've found that it has either no number on the RFM or the number is barely visible and is actually not the same as the UFM.......You cant help everyone.......even when you tell them what you've found they seem happy to just shrug it off.........The bikes should be valued on their merit, and running history........Look at famous racing Vincent's.......unless its the bathing suit bike or Gunga Din......they have little value at all.......As Davidd told me.......everyone likes to look at them but no one really wants one........Regardless, they are still and will always be one of the best classic bikes of all time, so lets just enjoy them as much as we can.....Cheers.
I say matching numbers, Greg says not. Taken with the 50/50 probability that both of us are wrong, you have the definitive answer for guiding present and future purchasing decisions.
Even allowing for variations in the 'standard' interval between engine and frame numbers (often known) we should also spare thought for those owners whose bikes did not have matching numbers when they came from the factory 
No-one could attest to Gunga Dinn having matching numbers and as for doubts about recording on the back of a fag packet during the hiatus as the last D's came out of the factory.
I have had a lot of Vincents the only matching number bike was a Rapide that cost me £65 I think bits of it are still in my Comet
I guess nobody cared about numbers till about 1980
Ride em dont hide em.
No-one could attest to Gunga Dinn having matching numbers and as for doubts about recording on the back of a fag packet during the hiatus as the last D's came out of the factory.
I have had a lot of Vincents the only matching number bike was a Rapide that cost me £65 I think bits of it are still in my Comet
I guess nobody cared about numbers till about 1980
Ride em dont hide em.
with the focus on matching bikes.......in more recent times more a thing for the investors, actual riders probably don't fuss about it so much.......makes you wonder if the peak of it is over and done with........with the cost of living and housing prices so out of reach for younger folk.......population decline........Younger couple decide "gee do we buy a house or start a family"the last thing on their minds will be buying an expensive old school bike.......Just think about this......How many vintage cars do you see on the roads these days........I feel that says it all.
We have a morning meeting in a village near me first Sunday in the month in non winter months last year it was £5 for a hot drink and a bacon roll there were about 10-15 bikes and the rest were significantly old cars we filled the car park and a field every time and made £7000 pounds for charity last year. plenty of old cars on our country roads
We are all custodians of these older machines and, at least in my view, have a responsibility to care for them so they can be enjoyed by a future generation.
No one has mentioned the word "provenance". It strikes me that matching numbers is one element of provenance. A vehicle is typically worth more when the provenance is known. Generally speaking a vehicle's provenance will be weak when the numbers don't match as the the various parts have not been together all its life. A bike that left the works without the numbers matching would be an exception and likely have an interesting story. On the other hand, a numbers matching engine UFM and RFM bike that has most components replaced has less "provenance" that a bike that has been completely kept together such as a 400 mile Shadow I know of. This concept is diluted in "vincent world" where bikes that can be ridden long distances with confidence are correctly valued more than those that have not turned a wheel in decades. I know I value matching numbers to some extent but that factor needs to be tempered by other factors.
I have an early '46 Ariel Red Hunter/Deluxe where the records show that the Deluxe was shipped to a dealer in the Northeast U.S. and the Red Hunter was shipped to the same dealer several months later. The story that came with the bike was that the original purchaser liked the Deluxe but wanted more engine performance and so the dealer swapped engines at his request. I have no direct proof that this story is correct but it makes sense and I like it. To me the story makes the non-matching numbers more acceptable. It is an aspect of provenance. On the other hand, I support trying to reassemble the original engine, UFM and RFM when the opportunity arises. Quite a while ago, I bought an Atlas where the owner had two Atlases where the original engine of each was in the other frame. Part of the deal was for me to swap engines and I now have a matching no. Atlas.
None of us would probably ride old bikes if it were just about the riding. I new bike works better with less hassle. Thus the vintage experience is valued by all. Provenance is part of that but the extent of its importance varies between different enthusiasts.
My thoughts. M
No one has mentioned the word "provenance". It strikes me that matching numbers is one element of provenance. A vehicle is typically worth more when the provenance is known. Generally speaking a vehicle's provenance will be weak when the numbers don't match as the the various parts have not been together all its life. A bike that left the works without the numbers matching would be an exception and likely have an interesting story. On the other hand, a numbers matching engine UFM and RFM bike that has most components replaced has less "provenance" that a bike that has been completely kept together such as a 400 mile Shadow I know of. This concept is diluted in "vincent world" where bikes that can be ridden long distances with confidence are correctly valued more than those that have not turned a wheel in decades. I know I value matching numbers to some extent but that factor needs to be tempered by other factors.
I have an early '46 Ariel Red Hunter/Deluxe where the records show that the Deluxe was shipped to a dealer in the Northeast U.S. and the Red Hunter was shipped to the same dealer several months later. The story that came with the bike was that the original purchaser liked the Deluxe but wanted more engine performance and so the dealer swapped engines at his request. I have no direct proof that this story is correct but it makes sense and I like it. To me the story makes the non-matching numbers more acceptable. It is an aspect of provenance. On the other hand, I support trying to reassemble the original engine, UFM and RFM when the opportunity arises. Quite a while ago, I bought an Atlas where the owner had two Atlases where the original engine of each was in the other frame. Part of the deal was for me to swap engines and I now have a matching no. Atlas.
None of us would probably ride old bikes if it were just about the riding. I new bike works better with less hassle. Thus the vintage experience is valued by all. Provenance is part of that but the extent of its importance varies between different enthusiasts.
My thoughts. M