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Mecum 2019 Las Vegas Auction


Lambers

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hello Jon, I don't think we have met, But talking of Numbers, My first Twin I bought in 1965, I think.
I still have it, But the Rear Frame numbers are really Small !!,
I have been around Vin's for many years, And never seen the like,
It was ONLY 15 years old when i bought it, And we never worried about numbers back then,
I guess it could have been in a crash and replaced,
Just saying after all these years who knows.
Dear old John Marshall used to check our numbers at the race track and rally's, He took mine so often, He had my Engine number in his head !!, But never said anything about the rear frame, He may have only been taking the Engine numbers ?. Cheers Bill.
No I don't think we have met.
You'll be pleased to know John Marshall's books are still giving us information to this day and Simon has been busy transcribing all his notebooks, supplied by his family, for quite a while.
A lot of rear frames were swapped smashed and of course restamped over the years. There are rear frames from differing bikes all over the place.
In the UK the rear frames are of no interest to DVLA and that's probably a good thing.
 

vin998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hello Jon, I don't think we have met, But talking of Numbers, My first Twin I bought in 1965, I think.
I still have it, But the Rear Frame numbers are really Small !!,
I have been around Vin's for many years, And never seen the like,
It was ONLY 15 years old when i bought it, And we never worried about numbers back then,
I guess it could have been in a crash and replaced,
Just saying after all these years who knows.
Dear old John Marshall used to check our numbers at the race track and rally's, He took mine so often, He had my Engine number in his head !!, But never said anything about the rear frame, He may have only been taking the Engine numbers ?. Cheers Bill.
Hi Bill
If you send me or Jon a photo of your RFM we will be able to comment if it looks like factory stampings or not. We have over 9000 photos of Vincent numbers in the database to compare against which shows the different stamping fonts used at different time periods so yours may not be that unusual as some were small.
Simon
 

vin998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Simon, While I appreciate your hard work and undeniable passion to keep everything above board I do take issue (in the nicest way) with works sheets from 1949. We both know from personal experience that the works were struggling with the change from B to C and also the new Shadows. It is my belief (and I always stand to be corrected), that a Vincent with a frame stamped RC/***** is a Series C. Some of these bikes had a straight rear seat lug BUT the RFM was longer than a Series B one. So.... irrespective of the front forks, if the bike has a long RFM and is stamped RC/**** then it is a Series C. The other, less compelling reason would be the cylinder heads and gearbox cover, both of which vary in 1949. As we also know, an HRD engine does NOT mean a Series B. What fun.
I agree that 1949 was a very confusing year. HRD to Vincent, series B & C and also a lot of general design changes that had nothing to do with the series.
The reason for the introduction of the series C was the introduction of the Girdraulic forks as it was a big alteraltion in the look of the bike. Generally if the works records list the bike as a series B then it has a R frame number and Brampton forks where a series C has a RC frame number with Girdraulics BUT just to muddy the waters there is the odd anomalies which defies the normal above logic, probably because buyers if they had the money could request whatever they wanted from the factory.

The changes to RFM's gearbox covers, gearlevers etc were just design improvements which were subjected to all models and series been built at the same time and nothing to do with series B or C. There was an 18 month overlap between the first C and the last B and the last of the series B's had Vincent engines, Vincent transfers, later gearbox cover, later one piece gearlever, longer RFM with curved seat stays and also a rear damper, but still had the one thing that stood them out as a B which was Bramptons. In other words apart from Brampton forks and the frame number the last B's were just the same as the C's been produced at the time. When a lot of changes were introduced like the RFM changes, the existing jigs were altered so it was not possible to produce several different types of RFM's at the same time. When an owner with a 1949 or early 1950 bike contacts me and it is proved to have the original UFM & RFM I ask for other details to identify them and have been slowly mapping out what was fitted to when and by September 1949 everything (including series B) was been fitted with the longer RFM with curved seat stay brackets.
Simon
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Since the make 'Egli' has never been patented I have always regarded 'Egl'i as a twin shock frame with a large round oiltank connected to the steering head. 'original Egli' 'Slater Egli' 'ctg egli' ,and many other epithets abound
It is at least in the Vincent tradition of B and ,C all a bit muddled.
Incidentally forks are the last thing that can be used to judge a series Vincent I wonder if there are any records of how many were returned to the works to be updated to Girdraulics (you cant keep fashion down!) and indeed how many C.s like mine were changed 'back' to Bramptons before a racing career.
 
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davidd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Since the make 'Egli' has never been patented I have always regarded 'Egl'i as a twin shock frame with a large round oiltank connected to the steering head. 'original Egli' 'Slater Egli' 'ctg egli' ,and many other epithets abound
Regarding the number of shocks on an original Egli, Fritz did build monoshocks, but they were not common on the Vincent engines. The choice was probably driven by damper availability and popular style more than design.

I asked Fritz many decades ago about protecting the trademark and he said that fighting international lawsuits was not a possibility for him. Slater was authorized and Godet was authorized by Fritz.

Cyril told me someone from Egli showed up at his door one day and wanted to see what he was doing. Cyril showed him and he went away, as I remember it.

It is also (probably) widely known that Mossey has no such approval from Fritz
That is true. JMR had authorization to use the Vincent name from Holder.

David
 

John Smith-Daye

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
It is interesting to note from the photographs that the 1951 Black Shadow apparently came with interchangeable "touring"/standard mudguards as well as chrome AND black chainguards.......................
 

Albervin

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I agree that 1949 was a very confusing year. HRD to Vincent, series B & C and also a lot of general design changes that had nothing to do with the series.
The reason for the introduction of the series C was the introduction of the Girdraulic forks as it was a big alteraltion in the look of the bike. Generally if the works records list the bike as a series B then it has a R frame number and Brampton forks where a series C has a RC frame number with Girdraulics BUT just to muddy the waters there is the odd anomalies which defies the normal above logic, probably because buyers if they had the money could request whatever they wanted from the factory.

The changes to RFM's gearbox covers, gearlevers etc were just design improvements which were subjected to all models and series been built at the same time and nothing to do with series B or C. There was an 18 month overlap between the first C and the last B and the last of the series B's had Vincent engines, Vincent transfers, later gearbox cover, later one piece gearlever, longer RFM with curved seat stays and also a rear damper, but still had the one thing that stood them out as a B which was Bramptons. In other words apart from Brampton forks and the frame number the last B's were just the same as the C's been produced at the time. When a lot of changes were introduced like the RFM changes, the existing jigs were altered so it was not possible to produce several different types of RFM's at the same time. When an owner with a 1949 or early 1950 bike contacts me and it is proved to have the original UFM & RFM I ask for other details to identify them and have been slowly mapping out what was fitted to when and by September 1949 everything (including series B) was been fitted with the longer RFM with curved seat stay brackets.
Simon
So, should I measure my RFM with straight seat lugs to see if it is a short or long one? Even though my bike is "mostly original" how do I know whether the "early" gearbox cover is standard? I won't lose sleep over it but when I bought the bike I thought the only non-standard cover was the Primmer fibreglass magneto cover.
 

vin998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
So, should I measure my RFM with straight seat lugs to see if it is a short or long one? Even though my bike is "mostly original" how do I know whether the "early" gearbox cover is standard? I won't lose sleep over it but when I bought the bike I thought the only non-standard cover was the Primmer fibreglass magneto cover.
When the gearbox cover design was changed exactly I don't know. All I know it was in late 1949 / early 1950.
For your RFM, just let me know what type of rear brake cable abutment is fitted. Is it the cast boss type only fitted on one side or is it the removeable type that can be bolted on either side. This will tell me the length of the RFM as the brake abutment was altered at the same time as the RFM length on the production bikes.
Simon
 

MSVH Y3

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I have a short RFM. It has straight lugs. It has the removable rear brake cable abutment.
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hello Jon, I don't think we have met, But talking of Numbers, My first Twin I bought in 1965, I think.
I still have it, But the Rear Frame numbers are really Small !!,
I have been around Vin's for many years, And never seen the like,
It was ONLY 15 years old when i bought it, And we never worried about numbers back then,
I guess it could have been in a crash and replaced,
Just saying after all these years who knows.
Dear old John Marshall used to check our numbers at the race track and rally's, He took mine so often, He had my Engine number in his head !!, But never said anything about the rear frame, He may have only been taking the Engine numbers ?. Cheers Bill.
Don't know if anybody is interested, But Simon thinks my rear number could be OK.
The Bike is not for sale, But it has worried me for a long time.
Cheers Bill.
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Its relitivity Bill ,when approaching the speed of light things get compressed horizontally and those numbers on the RFM just got stuck on the rebound , the effect does not occur on the headstock as thats vertical. just go slower.
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Vibrac, You have lost me again !, If I go any slower, I would have stopped !.
Just shows even the Numbers aren't standard, I have seen many I didn't like the look of, A lot on this Forum.
These are Strange Machines. Cheers Bill.
 

Vincent Brake

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Anyway guys, we are all looking to the auction results.
And depending the outcome :
We have a plain water, a good wine, and some of us even a cognac, at dinnertime.
 

Bill Cannon

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Clearly not an Egli frame with the rear loop and square section swing arm, and not a period build with those modern disc brakes.
Any one know the back-story?
Bill
 

peter holmes

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
A Vincent timing chest cover (as opposed to H.R.D.) with an engine number of 1836? early type gear change cover, probably correct, the extensive write up mentions 1949, the website post mentions 1948, more than likely correct, LHS crankcase has had H.R.D. removed from the casting, I don't think this was done as early as engine number 1836.
 

Lambers

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The last we heard of this Egli on the VOC database was in 2008 in the UK, which ties in with the UK MOT mentioned.
Presuming it is the same one, it's clearly been exported to the USA at some point but no owner or seller has chosen to update the club. Obviously their choice but it's good to keep us updated so we can maintain the records.
Again it's appreciated if anyone is at or going to the auction, to take a photo of the UFM, RFM, engine and crankcase mating numbers and email them to me.
research998@voc.uk.com
Thanks
Jon Lambley
Machine Researcher
 

vin998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The last we heard of this Egli on the VOC database was in 2008 in the UK, which ties in with the UK MOT mentioned.
Presuming it is the same one, it's clearly been exported to the USA at some point but no owner or seller has chosen to update the club. Obviously their choice but it's good to keep us updated so we can maintain the records.
Again it's appreciated if anyone is at or going to the auction, to take a photo of the UFM, RFM, engine and crankcase mating numbers and email them to me.
research998@voc.uk.com
Thanks
Jon Lambley
Machine Researcher
May I add to Jons post, Bonhams usually check Vincents though us before their auctions but sometimes there is a last minute email from them about something which has been missed like the email I received today. Don't assume though that everything has been checked as some do slip through. So if your thinking on bidding, do ask and do your own due diligence first.

As for Mercum, they never contact us and have never asked about any Vincent in their auctions. So if anybody is going to the Mercum auction, take a notepad and camera and as Jon says let him or myself have those details of any Vincent and photos of their numbers etc as it will help keep our records up to date.
Simon Dinsdale
Machine Registrar
 

davidd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I would note that the provenance of the frame is not clear, while the description implies it is original. Most of the original Egli and Slater frames have numbers that can be checked. Anyone bidding seriously on an Egli should ask for the provenance of both the engine and chassis.

David
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Main thing nowadays in UK and Europe is that the frame has a registration from the classic period be it an original Egli,Slater,CTG, or any other copy, there are not many egli style frames getting V5 registrations and now Patrick has gone I expect they will dry up completely.
 

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