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Mecum 2019 Las Vegas Auction


Albervin

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The Lightning for sale at the Vegas Bonhams auction is advertised as a Series B but has an RC/ frame number. How can that be?
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I was not having a POP, Just think new owners should know what they are buying.
Cheers Bill.
 

Lambers

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
All I would say , being new to the role of Machine Researcher, is buyer beware.
ALLWAYS get your numbers checked with either Simon Dinsdale or myself before parting with your hard earned cash. I can't believe how many incorrect/restamped bikes pass before our eyes. Remember it's a free service from the VOC and you can sometimes get an answer within minutes.
Have your bike numbers ever been checked?, if not send us photographs of the UFM RFM, engine and Crankcase mating numbers and we'll tell you what it is or maybe isn't.
Is that UFM on your shelf in your workshop really what you think it is?
Does your missing frame number or engine still exist?
Anyway back to the bikes above, when I get to my computer I'll check the numbers given and come back to you.
Cheers
Jon Lambley
 
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Albervin

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
All I would say , being new to the role of Machine Researcher, is buyer beware.
ALLWAYS get your numbers checked with either Simon Dinsdale or myself before parting with your hard earned cash. I can't believe how many incorrect/restamped bikes pass before our eyes. Remember it's a free service from the VOC and you can sometimes get an answer within minutes.
Have your bike numbers ever been checked?, if not send us photographs of the UFM RFM, engine and Crankcase mating numbers and we'll tell you what it is or maybe isn't.
Is that UFM on your shelf in your workshop really what you think it is?
Does your missing frame number or engine still exist?
Anyway back to the bikes above, when I get to my computer I'll check the numbers given and come back to you.
Cheers
Thank you "Lambers", whoever you are, the quality of checking done by the VOC over the last twenty plus years is second to none. Dodgy numbers, dodgy owners, dodgy numbers are all laid bare by the data held by the VOC. Sadly, some people ask too late and some people think they can get away with fraud. There are some seriously dodgy machines here in Australia but unless the data is correlated within the VOC data bank there will be tears.
 

vin998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member

Lambers

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Thank you "Lambers", whoever you are, the quality of checking done by the VOC over the last twenty plus years is second to none. Dodgy numbers, dodgy owners, dodgy numbers are all laid bare by the data held by the VOC. Sadly, some people ask too late and some people think they can get away with fraud. There are some seriously dodgy machines here in Australia but unless the data is correlated within the VOC data bank there will be tears.
I'm tempted to say "I'm Batman" but I'm not, I'm just Jon Lambley, machine researcher.
My predecessors, Messer's Farrel, Powell and of course the current Registrar, Simon Dinsdale, have certainly done tons of work over the years, which has led to a very robust and impressive database, vital to the integrity of the Vincent name. Hopefully I'll follow in their footsteps, so to speak but time will tell.
 
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Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I thought the BIke was later than that, But for me the Years are flying by, And my head is full of Rubbish !.
I was just asking a Question, Not trying to stir things up, But I now see it says Egli on the tank, So it must be right !!. Cheers Bill.
 

vin998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The Lightning for sale at the Vegas Bonhams auction is advertised as a Series B but has an RC/ frame number. How can that be?
It a bit confusing this bike in the works records. On the works order form and engine spec sheet the model is written as "Rapide B" which has then been crossed out and Black Lightning written in with no mention of the series. The frame number is RC which usually signify's series C, but the forks are listed on the works order form as Bramptons which usually signify's series B. Rumour is the bike was delivered with Girdraulics fitted and the Bramptons were included as seperate items, but there is no mention of that or Girdraulics at all in the Vincent factory works records so the works records cannot confirm that. I suspect if you could afford to order a Lighning in 1948, you could afford to ask the factory for anything.
Simon
 

vin998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I'm tempted to say "I'm Batman" but I'm not, I'm just Jon Lambley.
My predecessors, Messer's Farrel, Powell and of course Simon, have certainly done tons of work over the years, which has led to a very robust and impressive database, vital to the integrity of the Vincent name. Hopefully I'll follow in their footsteps, so to speak but time will tell.
Predecessor? Just before the rumours start, (not that Vincent owners like rumours) I've not gone anywhere.:)

Yes Jon Lambley is the new Machine Researcher working with me since last September when he first appeared inside the front cover of MPH and is very quickly getting up to speed with Vincent numbers, good and dodgy and the scams asscociated with them.
Simon
Machine Registrar
 

Lambers

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Predecessor? Just before the rumours start, (not that Vincent owners like rumours) I've not gone anywhere.:)

Yes Jon Lambley is the new Machine Researcher working with me since last September when he first appeared inside the front cover of MPH and is very quickly getting up to speed with Vincent numbers, good and dodgy and the scams asscociated with them.
Simon
Machine Registrar
You know I didn't mean that. I'll edit it to make you feel current and more wanted !
 

vin998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I thought the BIke was later than that, But for me the Years are flying by, And my head is full of Rubbish !.
I was just asking a Question, Not trying to stir things up, But I now see it says Egli on the tank, So it must be right !!. Cheers Bill.
All I will say is when buying any Vincent or Egli, do your due diligence first before putting any money down.
Simon
 

Albervin

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The late Patrick Godet had a good "thing" with the French traffic authority where he registered all of his new machines as 1960s or earlier. He also had written approval from Fritz Egli to call his machines Godet-Egli. It is also (probably) widely known that Mossey has no such approval from Fritz. How he can obtain registration/approval of his machines is between him and the DVLA. Terry Prince has also received approval for his frames on the basis he worked with Fritz when the first Egli Vincents were made. I also believe Colin Taylor manufactures Egli style frames. It's a jungle out there.
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
All I would say , being new to the role of Machine Researcher, is buyer beware.
ALLWAYS get your numbers checked with either Simon Dinsdale or myself before parting with your hard earned cash. I can't believe how many incorrect/restamped bikes pass before our eyes. Remember it's a free service from the VOC and you can sometimes get an answer within minutes.
Have your bike numbers ever been checked?, if not send us photographs of the UFM RFM, engine and Crankcase mating numbers and we'll tell you what it is or maybe isn't.
Is that UFM on your shelf in your workshop really what you think it is?
Does your missing frame number or engine still exist?
Anyway back to the bikes above, when I get to my computer I'll check the numbers given and come back to you.
Cheers
Jon Lambley
Hello Jon, I don't think we have met, But talking of Numbers, My first Twin I bought in 1965, I think.
I still have it, But the Rear Frame numbers are really Small !!,
I have been around Vin's for many years, And never seen the like,
It was ONLY 15 years old when i bought it, And we never worried about numbers back then,
I guess it could have been in a crash and replaced,
Just saying after all these years who knows.
Dear old John Marshall used to check our numbers at the race track and rally's, He took mine so often, He had my Engine number in his head !!, But never said anything about the rear frame, He may have only been taking the Engine numbers ?. Cheers Bill.
 

Albervin

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
It a bit confusing this bike in the works records. On the works order form and engine spec sheet the model is written as "Rapide B" which has then been crossed out and Black Lightning written in with no mention of the series. The frame number is RC which usually signify's series C, but the forks are listed on the works order form as Bramptons which usually signify's series B. Rumour is the bike was delivered with Girdraulics fitted and the Bramptons were included as seperate items, but there is no mention of that or Girdraulics at all in the Vincent factory works records so the works records cannot confirm that. I suspect if you could afford to order a Lighning in 1948, you could afford to ask the factory for anything.
Simon
Simon, While I appreciate your hard work and undeniable passion to keep everything above board I do take issue (in the nicest way) with works sheets from 1949. We both know from personal experience that the works were struggling with the change from B to C and also the new Shadows. It is my belief (and I always stand to be corrected), that a Vincent with a frame stamped RC/***** is a Series C. Some of these bikes had a straight rear seat lug BUT the RFM was longer than a Series B one. So.... irrespective of the front forks, if the bike has a long RFM and is stamped RC/**** then it is a Series C. The other, less compelling reason would be the cylinder heads and gearbox cover, both of which vary in 1949. As we also know, an HRD engine does NOT mean a Series B. What fun.
 

Lambers

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The late Patrick Godet had a good "thing" with the French traffic authority where he registered all of his new machines as 1960s or earlier. He also had written approval from Fritz Egli to call his machines Godet-Egli. It is also (probably) widely known that Mossey has no such approval from Fritz. How he can obtain registration/approval of his machines is between him and the DVLA. Terry Prince has also received approval for his frames on the basis he worked with Fritz when the first Egli Vincents were made. I also believe Colin Taylor manufactures Egli style frames. It's a jungle out there.
Yes a minefield for certain.
I guess it's down to Mr Egli to deal with any unauthorised copying of his brand. As for registering new bikes as old we can but guess what's been said or produced to achieve it in the UK.
 

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