• Welcome to the website of the Vincent H.R.D. Owners Club.

    Should you have any questions relating to the Vincent H.R.D. Owners Club, or Vincent H.R.D. motorcycles in general, please contact Graham Smith, Hon. Editor and Webmaster by calling 07977 001 025 or please CLICK HERE.

    You are unrecognised, and therefore, only have VERY restricted access to the many features of this website.

    If you have previously registered to use this forum, you should log in now. CLICK HERE.

    If you have never registered to use this website before, please CLICK HERE.

Misc: Charging Systems Series ‘C’ Rapide Battery Not Charging


greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Bill is spot on..........I'm not saying that Vic is incorrect on the ESA as I can see his version is far superior to the original cam design, However, the issue with the Alton's and their supplied plastic gear is mostly a meshing problem.......And also the plastic gear has teeth that are wider than the stock steel item, so there is less side movement, that coupled to sloppy chainwheel bushes, and if the alton is not centered correctly will end up in rapid ware of the plastic item..........I've seen it a few times now.
 

MartynG

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Thanks for the reply. I think it’s best to fit the nylon sprocket after reading about wear issues. Rather that than the chain.
Can’t be a widespread problem as Alton still use them.
The plastic drive gear is a very tight fit when it 'meshes' into the drive chain. It may be a prudent thing to reduce the thickness a tad BEFORE you install it.
 

Kiwi_Tim

Active Website User
VOC Member
1564540341166.png
Any thoughts on replacing the steel gear on a lucas dynamo with one of these to reduce risk of damage to the primary chain?
 
Last edited:

Gary Gittleson

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I don't know about putting one on a Lucas Dynamo but I got worried about my Alton with the plastic sprocket after reading dire warnings on this thread. There was indeed damage clearly demonstrated here but I just took a look at mine. It has been there since the Alton installation, some 10,000 miles ago. I don't see any discernible wear so far. I did run the bike for maybe 1500 miles with a clapped-out primary chain but then installed a new one. That new one has held its adjustment quite well so far and as I just noticed, the dynamo sprocket is holding up well too. So even the old chain didn't destroy the sprocket. I could have been lucky there.

When I initially installed the Alton, I did experience the Richardson-documented whine which is due to a too-heavy engagement of the sprocket with the chain. I installed one of those pre-made shims under the dynamo bracket and the noise stopped. Maybe it would have done some damage if I hadn't done that.
Gary
 

danno

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
I don't know about putting one on a Lucas Dynamo but I got worried about my Alton with the plastic sprocket after reading dire warnings on this thread. There was indeed damage clearly demonstrated here but I just took a look at mine. It has been there since the Alton installation, some 10,000 miles ago. I don't see any discernible wear so far. I did run the bike for maybe 1500 miles with a clapped-out primary chain but then installed a new one. That new one has held its adjustment quite well so far and as I just noticed, the dynamo sprocket is holding up well too. So even the old chain didn't destroy the sprocket. I could have been lucky there.

When I initially installed the Alton, I did experience the Richardson-documented whine which is due to a too-heavy engagement of the sprocket with the chain. I installed one of those pre-made shims under the dynamo bracket and the noise stopped. Maybe it would have done some damage if I hadn't done that.
Gary
Thanks for the useful info.
Have got the Miller dynamo off.
As mentioned, the new nylon sprocket is a bit thicker than the original (pic).
Maybe could still use it as it looks ok.
 

Attachments

Gary Gittleson

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
MartynG mentioned the fact that the plastic sprocket is thicker. I think you just have to be careful to mount the dynamo so that the sprocket is centered in the middle row of chain and has clearance on both sides.

Gary
 

Kiwi_Tim

Active Website User
VOC Member
My dynamo was disconnected and my primary shagged. Am planning to replace the bearings in the E3L but thinking a sacrificial gear rather than a steel one is probably a good move (along with careful alignment/shimming if need be)
 

danno

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
The regulated supplied with your Alton alternator and fits neatly on top.
I notice there’s two bolt holes on the original dynamo clamp but the Alton regulator ones are too far apart.
 
Last edited:

MartynG

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I notice there’s two bolt holes on the original dynamo clamp but the Alton regulator ones are too far apart.
Those holes are for the original miller regulator. It is possible to mount he Alton regulator INSIDE a gutted miller regulator case but you need to be sure of sufficient airflow over the ALTON regulator by drilling holes in the BASE of the miller case
 

bmetcalf

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I mounted my Podtronics reg on a 1/8" alloy plate with countersunk screws into the dynamo clamp. Maybe the same approach would work for your reg.
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The new podtronics regs will not fit inside an original Miller box, they are too big. I mount them under the battery tray with 2 countersunk head screws, plenty of air flow and no ugly modern devices visible.........Just my way of doing it. My 2 pet hates on old bikes..........Poor wiring and components that look hideous, modern crimp connectors especially, and control cables that are draped over the engine, mostly because people don't know how to route them correctly, why hide one of the prettiest engines in motorcycling history with ugly spiders webs of cables and wiring. Just waiting for the flack from all the experts now............:)
 

danno

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
The new podtronics regs will not fit inside an original Miller box, they are too big. I mount them under the battery tray with 2 countersunk head screws, plenty of air flow and no ugly modern devices visible
Thanks. My starter solenoid is mounted under the battery tray. It’s a neat rubber holder that’s actually split and the solenoid is just hanging on the cables. Hoping FrancoIs Grosset can supply a new one.
For the Podtronics regulator, I thinks it’s going to have to go on the Alton.
The JG one was bolted on the rear mudguard (earlier pic) but at least it was alloy and matched.
 
Last edited:

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hard to tell what version of ESA we talk about don't forget the drawing project has redrawn the design a year or so ago
 

timetraveller

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I'm not sure that there was a redesign. Mind you there is a lot I am not sure about but my understanding was that things had been let slip over the years and that some of the angles were not as originally intended. My information was that the new drawing was intended to let future manufacturers make them as original. It should also be noted that the D ESA is superior to the B/C version.
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Vibrac,
as far as I could see from the picture in the Spares Co catalogue the "new" ESA design was a mere correction for fighting the chipping edges due to poor matching faces. This is absolutely useless to achieve a real shock absorbing effect. There is not the least progressive action in it so it will slam onto its end faces as it did for decades - with consecutive damage to the dynamo gears and breaking triplex chains like before. Someone in the Spares Co asked for drawings of my BMW inspired mod for the Vincent engine. I believe that was only a faint reaction instead of just remaining silent about that matter. How can I supply a drawing of a three dimensional shape - that I did not even have for my own machining ?? I offered to explain the thinking and method about manufacturing the assembly -one side is simple to do, the corresponding part needs an electrical dividing head and CNC for economic machining. I could send my alu test set for getting an idea about my logic - no reaction so far.
Just because being ever so curious I made up a slip clutch hub for the dynamo sprocket for discussions and maybe some would like to copy that when running the old ESA and heavy dynamos from the triplex chain. I will post some photos next days.

Vic
 

timetraveller

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
When Vic first started writing about the BMW design of shock absorber I plotted a.graph on here of the way that design moves in and out with rotation of the two main parts. If the restorative force is being applied by a spring(s) used over its linear range then the shape of that graph also illustrates the way in which the force changes. I am away from home at the moment so cannot bring up that graph just now. My memory is that the shapes of the two parts of the cams means that the force rises more rapidly than linearly. Without access to the bits I need I cannot be sure, but I think that the Vincent design is intended to produce a linearly increasing force. Now why would one be better than the other?
I have written before that John Emmanuel, using a stroboscope, found that the standard Vincent design went easily from a peak to peak configuration depending upon whether the system was in drive or over running mode. Not enough spring force? I have also written about Dick Sherwins experience with flitting the stronger Australian ESA to his oversized twin and sidecar. With this he found that there was almost no movement of one part of the cam and the other as witnessed by the wear marks on the cam faces. Removing a few of the springs solved that problem.
So that now brings us back to the question of whether one wants a linear increase of spring pressure or an "exponential" one. Given decent design criteria, and accurate machining, then I cannot see why the linear system should not work. On the other hand if the forces applied are likely to be outside the design criteria then the BMW system will be more forgiving
Regarding 3D drawings then, I produce a lot of these although I am self taught and use a nineteen year old version of ACAD, it's what I can afford you know. The question with a lot of similar projects is how many will sell? I have sold about 150 of the JE steering heads over the last few years. This despite that it is a major improvement to comfort and safety and is generally not noticeable when looking at the bike. Producing 3D drawings of a hybrid ESA would not be a major task but, for example, with my background as an astronomer I would require advice as to the correct tooth form to mesh with a chain.
 

danno

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
I don't know about putting one on a Lucas Dynamo but I got worried about my Alton with the plastic sprocket after reading dire warnings on this thread. There was indeed damage clearly demonstrated here but I just took a look at mine. It has been there since the Alton installation, some 10,000 miles ago. I don't see any discernible wear so far. I did run the bike for maybe 1500 miles with a clapped-out primary chain but then installed a new one. That new one has held its adjustment quite well so far and as I just noticed, the dynamo sprocket is holding up well too. So even the old chain didn't destroy the sprocket. I could have been lucky there.

When I initially installed the Alton, I did experience the Richardson-documented whine which is due to a too-heavy engagement of the sprocket with the chain. I installed one of those pre-made shims under the dynamo bracket and the noise stopped. Maybe it would have done some damage if I hadn't done that.
Gary
Looks like the plastic sprocket is working well there.
The teeth don’t seem to feel tight in the chain links and could probably slot straight on.
Not sure how I can check for free movement or play once in place though.
Interested in the shim mentioned but unsure where it goes or how it works.
 

bmetcalf

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
For free play, see that the root of the sprocket teeth is not touching the chain rollers and rock the sprocket back and forth to assure some gap between the teeth and the sides of the rollers.

The shim goes under the ET221 cradle to lift the dynamo away from the chain. The shim is used if rotating the dynamo in the cradle doesn't give the clearances mentioned above.
 

Latest Forum Threads

Top