No worries, Greg. When I was about 18, and my best mate had a Rapide with only 2nd. and 4th. gears (and I bet you can diagnose THAT one straight away) I stuffed around with motor mowers. I learned a few basic things. Clean the air filter, check the oil level every time you use it, change the oil every spring, tip the motor plug side up always, and check the blades before use. Not all of this was transferable to the Comet I bought, but the bikes were made to be serviceable and not be the subject of abstruse and recondite shamanism. As far as I can tell, you're right. Any reasonable oil made for old machinery and thin enough to get where it is needed quickly, get it warm, and use the machine regularly.Can't find you a 1'' twistgrip, sorry mate.I'm going on a long and hopefully bumpy ride soon on the new front end.Hi there Charlie, Sorry i wasn't having a dig at you, it was more the talk about oil's and zinc parts per million, which is all fine and dandy. But as I said, more about the affect of how using a heavier weight oil made my bike quite difficult to start. I could't be happier with it now.......when I fired it up the other day it started first kick, and when I checked in the fuel tank it was "Bone dry" so how good is that.............
E: Engine Oil Viscosity
- Thread starter greg brillus
- Start date
Morning all,
Some years ago my partner's Citroen Saxo VTR became difficult to start, typical tired battery syndrome. Fitting a new battery went some way to solving the problem but it was never quite right. I went through the usual checks of battery connections, engine earth etc. but in the end thought it would be worth checking the starter motor. Citroen cunningly mounted the starter motor between the block and exhaust system at the rear of the engine, nightmare. Anyway, out it came, twice, but no fault found. Starting eventually became such a problem that she would carry a second battery and jump leads for 'difficult' days. At this time we had our own places some 60 miles apart. One evening I got a call.... "there was an almighty bang, I carried on driving but there was oil all down the side of the car when I got home". I told her not to use the car and I would come over the next day.
When I checked the car there was a hole in the oil filter, something must have clattered it while she was driving home. I picked up a new oil filter and oil and set about the job hoping the 10 miles she drove with a hole in the filter hadn't done too much damage. When I unscrew the sump drain plug there was a 'gloop' sound, then a few seconds later a second 'gloop' sound, this went of for many minutes as the thickest oil I've ever seen reluctantly drained from the engine. I asked her when the car had last had an oil change......
Anyway, the new oil and filter fixed the battery problem)
If increased oil viscosity can make it hard for a starter motor imagine what it can do for your knees!
I use Morris Golden Film SAE40 Classic Motor Vehicle oil in my twin. I'm a fair weather motorcyclist these days, warm and dry days only, so think that with a sensible warm up period SAE40 should be OK, hope so anyway!
Cheers,
Chris.
Some years ago my partner's Citroen Saxo VTR became difficult to start, typical tired battery syndrome. Fitting a new battery went some way to solving the problem but it was never quite right. I went through the usual checks of battery connections, engine earth etc. but in the end thought it would be worth checking the starter motor. Citroen cunningly mounted the starter motor between the block and exhaust system at the rear of the engine, nightmare. Anyway, out it came, twice, but no fault found. Starting eventually became such a problem that she would carry a second battery and jump leads for 'difficult' days. At this time we had our own places some 60 miles apart. One evening I got a call.... "there was an almighty bang, I carried on driving but there was oil all down the side of the car when I got home". I told her not to use the car and I would come over the next day.
When I checked the car there was a hole in the oil filter, something must have clattered it while she was driving home. I picked up a new oil filter and oil and set about the job hoping the 10 miles she drove with a hole in the filter hadn't done too much damage. When I unscrew the sump drain plug there was a 'gloop' sound, then a few seconds later a second 'gloop' sound, this went of for many minutes as the thickest oil I've ever seen reluctantly drained from the engine. I asked her when the car had last had an oil change......
Anyway, the new oil and filter fixed the battery problem
)If increased oil viscosity can make it hard for a starter motor imagine what it can do for your knees!
I use Morris Golden Film SAE40 Classic Motor Vehicle oil in my twin. I'm a fair weather motorcyclist these days, warm and dry days only, so think that with a sensible warm up period SAE40 should be OK, hope so anyway!
Cheers,
Chris.
Yes this morning the wife and I got the bikes out, with myself and my 15 year old son on the back and the wife on her 2016 KTM 390 Duke, we fired up and took off for a run out to one of our local Coffee stops. From dead cold my Rap fired first kick, and out at the coffee stop on the return run home and with a sea of faces looking on, again the Rap fired first kick. I could not be happier with the bike now, and my thoughts of changing to coil ignition are no longer necessary. Definitely a lesson well learned there.
Hi
I have run my Comet on 20/50 oil for around 40 years- First on Castrol classic 20/50 then - because I can get it cheaper at around £16 for 5 litres-on Millers Golden film 20/50 Classic oil -though goodness knows what I put in it from1956 when I bought the bike till then.
I have used Millers now for around 10 years with no problems and probably done 40,000 or so miles with it.
I have rarely changed the filter, but the bike has always used a bit of oil (around a pint in 500 miles) even though the bore, piston and valve guides are in very good order - so most of the time I just topped it up! My Comet by the way has a low expansion piston bored to 21/2 thou clearance and valve guides with oil seals and was run in fairly hard to avoid glazing.
My contention has always been that any modern oil will be better than the stuff it was designed for before the 39/45 war !!
However I have just seen an article (written in 1986) which says that :-
Multigrade oils containing polymers are unsuitable for air cooled engines because :-
They are not suitable for the temperatures in some parts of air cooled engines.
The polymers rapidly degrade and the oil soon reverts to its thinnest viscosity.
The 50 rating hot only applies for cooler water cooled engines and the oil is therefore much thinner in a hotter air cooled engine leading to more wear and heavy oil consumption.
Because the products produced by the engine are held in suspension in modern oils instead of settling out, it is essential to change the oil and filter at around 1,000 miles intervals. My car says 12,000 miles for 5/30 oil and uses virtually none !!
Maybe since the article was written the multigrade oils are now very different and better, but certainly I have not had any problems and always find my engine very clean inside and have not had to change mains, big-ends , pistons, etc. for many years.
The cams and followers by the way are the original 1952 ones, still work fine and I hardly ever have to adjust the valve clearances.
Surley the multigrade oil will get where it is needed much faster on a cold morning and this should offset wear to a greater extent than any damage done by other factors.
So is all this talk about only using straight oil in our old bikes a load of nonsense now?
Is there a lubrication expert out there who can say what the real facts are on this.
Matty
I have run my Comet on 20/50 oil for around 40 years- First on Castrol classic 20/50 then - because I can get it cheaper at around £16 for 5 litres-on Millers Golden film 20/50 Classic oil -though goodness knows what I put in it from1956 when I bought the bike till then.
I have used Millers now for around 10 years with no problems and probably done 40,000 or so miles with it.
I have rarely changed the filter, but the bike has always used a bit of oil (around a pint in 500 miles) even though the bore, piston and valve guides are in very good order - so most of the time I just topped it up! My Comet by the way has a low expansion piston bored to 21/2 thou clearance and valve guides with oil seals and was run in fairly hard to avoid glazing.
My contention has always been that any modern oil will be better than the stuff it was designed for before the 39/45 war !!
However I have just seen an article (written in 1986) which says that :-
Multigrade oils containing polymers are unsuitable for air cooled engines because :-
They are not suitable for the temperatures in some parts of air cooled engines.
The polymers rapidly degrade and the oil soon reverts to its thinnest viscosity.
The 50 rating hot only applies for cooler water cooled engines and the oil is therefore much thinner in a hotter air cooled engine leading to more wear and heavy oil consumption.
Because the products produced by the engine are held in suspension in modern oils instead of settling out, it is essential to change the oil and filter at around 1,000 miles intervals. My car says 12,000 miles for 5/30 oil and uses virtually none !!
Maybe since the article was written the multigrade oils are now very different and better, but certainly I have not had any problems and always find my engine very clean inside and have not had to change mains, big-ends , pistons, etc. for many years.
The cams and followers by the way are the original 1952 ones, still work fine and I hardly ever have to adjust the valve clearances.
Surley the multigrade oil will get where it is needed much faster on a cold morning and this should offset wear to a greater extent than any damage done by other factors.
So is all this talk about only using straight oil in our old bikes a load of nonsense now?
Is there a lubrication expert out there who can say what the real facts are on this.
Matty
There is a bundle of stuff on oil here but my take is that since 1986 modern oils like spark plugs have got worse for our engines a modern car engine and it's needs are light years away from an air cooled mid 20th century bike half the sixties adatives have been removed so stick to classic thin oils (if you travel far from R supplies )
)
There is a bundle of stuff on oil here but my take is that since 1986 modern oils like spark plugs have got worse for our engines a modern car engine and it's needs are light years away from an air cooled mid 20th century bike half the sixties adatives have been removed so stick to classic thin oils (if you travel far from R supplies
Hmm. there are still a bunch of modern machines that are air cooled. For example the current 2017 Yamaha SR400 (Single cylinder, air cooled, kick start) thats on sale here in Oz. The manufacturers recommended oil is
Engine oil:
Recommended brand:
YAMALUBE
SAE viscosity grades:
10W-40
Recommended engine oil grade:
API service SG type or higher, JASO standard MA
So methinks that just possibly oil may have actually improved in its performance , some time in the last 30+ years .
Actually I use 10W-40 Penrite in my Comet!
I do agree with the "forever" problem. However, I am not certain that ZDDP is an important ingredient. If you find oil film tests designed to test the film strength of oil for the purpose of using the oil in older flat tappet engines the high ZDDP oils do no do so well as one would think. I noted that Valvoline VR1 came in 46th place on film strength in a film strength test. I think the oil is still quite good and I would not jump ship. It is just that the cam to follower film strength merely "outstanding" instead of "incredible." And, I suppose that is the point. These differences often don't mean a lot in every day riding.
I always love to see Mr. Irving's advice. I do think if he were with us today he would think the multigrades were not just fine, but preferable. Multigrades today tend to provide the highest film strength and wear protection while flowing at a much higher rate, which means better cooling.
You do have to watch your thinking. If you take 5W20, 5W30 and 5W40 they are respectively 5.8, 5.9 and 6.2 times thicker than cold even though they are all the same "5". So, the number after the "W" also matters in determining how thick the cold oil is.
Assuming Phil is correct about the viscosity I would note that straight 30 is much thicker than 0W30, 5W30 amd 10W30 when cold. This means poor oiling on start up as well as reduced flow with the straight 30.
I think most owners carry too much oil in the oil tanks. Fill them up to the top when you head out for a rally.
I don't think you should drive yourself crazy with this. If you're having good luck keep doing what you are doing. I think experimenting with some of the thinner oils with incredible film strength might be worthwhile for someone like Greg who is tuning a Vincent in as many ways as he can figure. It is certainly nice to get a bike to kick start on the first kick!
David
I hear what you say Martin there are still air cooled motorcycle engines but I know you understand that they dont have have flat tappets and low pressure oil systems and I wonder does Yamalube have the additives like zinc and other old ingredients removed because they foul catalyst exhausts? having said that I think your choice of Penrite is not a bad one
One aspect is not mentioned: Multigrade oils tend to be a lot thinner when cold, that is what you want from them. The negative side is shown when your bike has long periods of time standing unused (winter) so multigrades will not stick to surfaces as well as monogrades and drain down to the bottom. In that case you might be better off with say 30 or 40 monograde, just for the benefit to cams and followers, the most critical places here. That is what matters a lot to Lycoming flat aero engines with their camshaft above the crank and no direct oil supply onto cams and tappets. So these guys got a lot of pressure to fly their gear often enough all year hoping to save the cams that way. These engines are aircooled designed at about the same time like Vincents and owners like to change oil in 25 to max 50 hour periods of use - trying to extend the life of cams and tappets to acceptable hours.
Vic
Vic
Thanks for all your replies. I would like to admit that I have always driven my Comet with sympathy, since 1956, when I bought it, - don't go over 60 in third and try to keep below 70 cruising on motorways.
In 1957 at around 20,000 miles, the original not very successful, triple row needle roller big end failed and the next caged roller one lasted around 60,000 miles and was not too bad even then. The Mains were also changed at the same time, but in fact looked fine.
A new barrel liner was also fitted at the same time because it had begun to crack round the top and could have been pulled down into the crankcase but the bore wear was very small.
I do not think any of these problems was due to my choice of oil and think I shall continue to use a Classic 20/50.
PS . I run my 1976 air cooled GS 450 Suzuki hack on 10/40 grade and have not had any problems, but it has an overhead cam engine.
Matty
In 1957 at around 20,000 miles, the original not very successful, triple row needle roller big end failed and the next caged roller one lasted around 60,000 miles and was not too bad even then. The Mains were also changed at the same time, but in fact looked fine.
A new barrel liner was also fitted at the same time because it had begun to crack round the top and could have been pulled down into the crankcase but the bore wear was very small.
I do not think any of these problems was due to my choice of oil and think I shall continue to use a Classic 20/50.
PS . I run my 1976 air cooled GS 450 Suzuki hack on 10/40 grade and have not had any problems, but it has an overhead cam engine.
Matty