Jig to Hold Head in Lathe

Magnetoman

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I wonder what sort of Sunnen your mechanic got for this job ? As both sides of the links are very far apart the hone needs very long stones for staying in both bores all the time during honing operation . My guess the link has to be turned around quite often for having both sides at same size in the end. So this must be a very special Sunnen type ... No photo available of that hone ??
There's nothing special about the hone. Since Greg has someone do the honing it's probably not easy for him to get a photo of it, so here's a photo of mine.

SunnenVincentmandrel.jpg


The 2-stone mandrel in the photo is a common one, in size 1.25", whose stones are long enough to allow an ample 1-1/2" back-and-forth motion. If someone wanted more, mandrels in the same diameter are available with 3, 4, and 5 stones, the latter with stones totaling over 16" in length.

The advantages of a Sunnen hone over a reamer for something like this (or for most other things) is it controls diameter to ~0.0001", and it produces a much better finish.
 

oexing

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Thanks for the photo, - but thanks, not my idea of machining two bearing seats. As you have to take care of wear on stones in the active section within the two bores you got the problem that you cannot possibly use all of the stone length like in your photo or they would get out of at least one bore. The hone would have to be the length of three stones for a longer stroke and so you could better take care for even wear of stones and hopefully not bellmouthed bores.
Only two opposing stones in one hone - unacceptable for me at this size, mistrust in roundness from bad examples. As for surface finish, a quality piloted reamer with good blades , uneven spaced, does the job perfectly well and a lot quicker. For real roller bearing quality I´d take the lapping tools , unbeatable.
Anyway, not my business, no Girdraulics in my home . . .

Vic
 

Magnetoman

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The hone would have to be the length of three stones for a longer stroke and so you could better take care for even wear of stones and hopefully not bellmouthed bores.
Only two opposing stones in one hone - unacceptable for me at this size, mistrust in roundness from bad examples.
Speaking as someone who owns a Sunnen hone and plenty of reamers, and has lots of experience with both, all I'll say is this understanding of hones is incorrect.
 

oexing

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Well, speaking as someone who owns lots of reamers, does cylinder honing - not with Sunnen gear - but got a bad job many years ago on a Jaguar engine, see photo, from most likely a two stone Sunnen hone typically used in engine shops. Seizure was my bad as I ordered way too little clearance. But the chatter marks from honing , out of roundness, can be seen on pistons. Rectified this myself with 6 stone production hone later and had a lot more clearance - you never stop learning.

Vic

photo5 174.jpg
 

Magnetoman

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got a bad job many years ago on a Jaguar engine, see photo, from most likely a two stone Sunnen hone typically used in engine shops.
Sorry about the problem you had, but an incompetent operator can screw up even when using the best of equipment. Also, the type of mandrel used for honing engine cylinders is quite different than the 2-stone mandrel I showed in my previous post. I know what level of roughness HSS and carbide reamers, as well as Sunnen hones, can produce because I measure them with my PocketSurf.

PocketSurf.jpg
 

Vincent Brake

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Greg, you seem to have been lucky most of times with honing the lower links as Norman has found quite a few oversize for ball bearings. I wonder what sort of Sunnen your mechanic got for this job ? As both sides of the links are very far apart the hone needs very long stones for staying in both bores all the time during honing operation . My guess the link has to be turned around quite often for having both sides at same size in the end. So this must be a very special Sunnen type and I think you get even a new a Hunger reamer for 32mm easier and less expensive than this Sunnen. No photo available of that hone ??
Vincent Speet went to 33 mm for the needle bearing, a whole millimeter more is a bit much for a reamer. In that case I´d have each bore on the mill plus boring head, roughly centered each time and keep some undersize left. So for perfect alignment and size I´d do the reaming in last stage, knowing that alignment is safely achieved. Piloted reamers are exactly the right tool for aligning bearing seats wide apart. And yes, my choice would be needles like Vincent´s idea - sealing the lot is another matter.

Vic
I was looking out for a set of Big Kaiser boring head, so one could go all the depht of 140 mm. and it has a body of 25 mm all the way, so with tip radius of 0,2 that would work.. eventually i will find it over ebay.

sealing is very easy by yust making a chamfer on the two brass rings and put a tight O ring over it.

and eventually grease putting in, keeps the dirt out!!!
 

Peter Holmes

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I thought you just sent the FF3 bottom link to Maughan and Sons, they sorted out the problem for you, and then posted it back to you, don't it just go to show, after 56 years of Vincents, you are never to old to learn.
 

Cyborg

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Well, speaking as someone who owns lots of reamers, does cylinder honing - not with Sunnen gear - but got a bad job many years ago on a Jaguar engine, see photo, from most likely a two stone Sunnen hone typically used in engine shops. Seizure was my bad as I ordered way too little clearance. But the chatter marks from honing , out of roundness, can be seen on pistons. Rectified this myself with 6 stone production hone later and had a lot more clearance - you never stop learning.

Vic

View attachment 48014

I have seen a lot of knackered pistons in my day, but nothing quite like that. Sometimes a 2 stone hone in the wrong hands can achieve an uneven surface in a wet cylinder because the liner actually flexes. In other words, the liner gets pushed out into the water jacket from the pressure of the stone so the amount of material removed is inconsistent. That can’t explain what you have there. I can understand how an inexperienced operator can get the bore out of round, but how does the hone chatter enough to leave peaks and valleys like that? If the guy was using a portable rigid hone, the vibration would cause all of his fillings to fall out. I have done a few cylinders with a portable rigid hone and I don’t recall having one start to chatter on me. He must have been trying to remove way too much material (and too fast) without boring the cylinders first…. then wore himself out before achieving enough clearance? There has to be more to the story… I have a manual somewhere that shows just about every conceivable piston failure…. I’ll try and find it and have a look, but don’t think they list one like that. The author of the manual would likely want to interview the guy that did that work…. assuming someone hasn’t extruded him through a sewer grate.
 

Cyborg

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I thought you just sent the FF3 bottom link to Maughan and Sons, they sorted out the problem for you, and then posted it back to you, don't it just go to show, after 56 years of Vincents, you are never to old to learn.
Post? Sublet work out? Get a grip on yourself man….
 

Magnetoman

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Only two opposing stones in one hone - unacceptable for me at this size, mistrust in roundness from bad examples. As for surface finish, a quality piloted reamer with good blades , uneven spaced, does the job perfectly well and a lot quicker. For real roller bearing quality I´d take the lapping tools , unbeatable.
I thought others might be interested in knowing more about a Sunnen hone in case there is general misunderstanding on the above points. Sunnen makes several types of hones for various purposes, but for honing individual holes or line honing of separated ones on everything I can think of on a motorcycle, their model MBB is the one to use.

1SunnenMBB1660.jpg


This hone uses a range of interchangeable mandrels for holes of every size on every motorcycle ever made, from the 0.106" of a main jet on up. As the photo I posted yesterday shows, the stones are on one side of the mandrel, not opposing each other, with shoes that ride against the bore on the other side. The angular extent of the shoes and stones is large so contact is far from being two points.

As already noted, the angular extent of the shoes and stones is large in their mandrels, ensuring roundness. There's also the circumstantial evidence that Sunnen hones have been in wide use in precision industries for over 80 years, which wouldn't seem likely if the holes they produced weren't round. But, I have direct evidence of roundness from my 2-point and 3-point bore gauges, together capable of determining any out-of-roundness greater than 0.0001".

EngineInspection13.jpg


3pointboregauge02.jpg


I can state from my own measurements, a Sunnen produces holes round to no worse than 0.0001".

As the next table from a Sunnen catalog shows, the right stones can achieve a surface roughness of as little as 1 µinch rms on hard steel, if desired, although for proper lubrication bearing manufacturers recommend 6–10 μinches for races. As this shows, lapping a bearing race to a finer finish than easily achievable with a Sunnen is neither necessary nor wise.

1Roughness.jpg


As for whether or not reaming is faster, that depends on the amount material to be removed. If a hole is drilled, say, 1/64" undersize and then reamed then, yes, a reamer will remove that 0.016" somewhat faster than a hone will. Still, the difference in time isn't significant in the non-production environment of someone's garage.

As an example, with a purpose-made jig to clamp the inner race to the outer, it didn't take very long with the the Sunnen to resize a 25 mm metric roller bearing by the necessary 0.0158" for a snug clearance fit on the 1" drive-side of my 1928 Ariel's crankshaft.

1BearingModification03.jpg


However, although marginally faster to produce a hole, and whether or not a reamer is sized to 0.0002", good luck achieving a reamed hole whose diameter has that level of precision, whereas it's easily possible with a Sunnen. Further, a reamer will leave a roughness of 30–60 μinches in steel (up to 80 μinches in cast iron), whereas the above table shows a hone will do a lot better than that. It's relevant to note that Kibblewhite recommends reaming cast iron guides to get them close to the correct ID, but followed by honing to achieve the recommended 32 μinches roughness. Similarly, they recommend honing bronze guides as well.

Reamers certainly are very useful, which is why I have a lot of them. Often the holes they produce are good enough for the task at hand. When I make valve guides I get them close to the final ID using reamers. But, when I need to achieve a precision ID, excellent roundness, and a proper surface finish, a Sunnen, not a reamer, is the right tool for the job.
 
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