How to advise on the sale of a collection?
- Thread starter Magnetoman
- Start date
Hi Max,
Magnetoman started the thread, he has the right to reply on it and encourage and steer comments to a satisfactory end.
The post is not about the size of anyone's assets, it is about maximising their value for the widows and orphans.
We are all going to die.
The guy in my first story had notice and a plan
The gent in the second story had plenty notice of his impending doom but left a bit of a mess to clear up.
Magnetoman started the thread, he has the right to reply on it and encourage and steer comments to a satisfactory end.
The post is not about the size of anyone's assets, it is about maximising their value for the widows and orphans.
We are all going to die.
The guy in my first story had notice and a plan
The gent in the second story had plenty notice of his impending doom but left a bit of a mess to clear up.
I'll second that. This continues to be a very interesting thread with a number of contributions of unusually wide interest. But, I saw it coming to a crashing end a little while ago as a result of Max, yet again, violating his solemn vow to never ever in a million years darken this doorstep again. So my sincere thanks to the moderators for doing what shouldn't be necessary, but what is.
I think My wife should know the value of anything, she has sat in the last 4 Bonhams Stafford sales and loved every transaction ask her the price of a pig port AJS she will be as close as I am, and allow for the commission (I have to visit all the stalls while the auction is on but I do bring her a tea 
and stop for the interesting ones)
and stop for the interesting ones)
Just a few random comments. There can be various "claw back" issues. There is a period of time after you make a transfer of property where the presumption is that is was a "transfer in anticipation of death." In most cases it would be two or three years, but it may vary wildly. I think in bankruptcy it is 18 months. All transfers within that period would be subject to some scrutiny. Start early and document.
There is a lot of privacy when using trusts. As an example, if there is just one asset, like a home, it can be sold without anyone knowing. Magnetoman sells me his home by simply making be the sole beneficiary of the "Magnetoman Oak Street Trust." I give him a pile of cash. The owner has not changed, it is still the trust and it is the trust's name on the deed, but I am now the beneficiary. This may be useful in states where the "sale" triggers a rise in property taxes, or inspections of various types.
Gifts to museums are a mixed bag. They often sell their assets to raise money. If new management comes in and takes an new direction your bike may be on the block. I have many friends that bought bikes from the closing of a museum.
David
There is a lot of privacy when using trusts. As an example, if there is just one asset, like a home, it can be sold without anyone knowing. Magnetoman sells me his home by simply making be the sole beneficiary of the "Magnetoman Oak Street Trust." I give him a pile of cash. The owner has not changed, it is still the trust and it is the trust's name on the deed, but I am now the beneficiary. This may be useful in states where the "sale" triggers a rise in property taxes, or inspections of various types.
Gifts to museums are a mixed bag. They often sell their assets to raise money. If new management comes in and takes an new direction your bike may be on the block. I have many friends that bought bikes from the closing of a museum.
David
Based on what he has written in previous posts I'm sure davidd knows this, but at least in the U.S. for most people the donation of motorcycles to a museum isn't a quick and easy way for the widow to deal with what is in the garage while also benefitting financially. First, the spouse typically is exempt from any inheritance tax, and for subsequent heirs the tax kicks in only for estates worth more than ~$5M. So, making donation to a tax exempt museum doesn't help reduce the tax burden, because there isn't such a burden (people with estates worth more than $5M have tax advisors with schemes more clever than a simple donation, anyway).
That said, "legitimate" museums are reluctant to sell off (deaccession) objects in their collections for fear of scaring off future donors. One common reason for people to donate items to museums is to guarantee their own immortality in the form of an object on display once owned by them. If museum A has a reputation for selling off stuff, they'll donate it to museum B.
p.s. to the moderators: again, thanks for your continued help to keep this thread on track about how best to dispose of motorcycles after the owner passes away, not how someone bought and sold estates as a business.
Most museums have you sign a document that you are completely surrendering control or ownership. You'd be surprised how many folks think that a museum is going to build a new wing to house their Harley Hummer 125 ! Yes, they can and will sell them off but if they do, it will probably be down the road a bit.
I went back through all the posts thus far in this thread to prepare the summary that is below. If I've missed something, by all means post a reply. Keep in mind that laws on taxes, inheritance, etc. vary greatly from country to country so, no matter what, consultation with an appropriate attorney will be necessary in any plan.
Although I've tried to categorize things, some items don't fit neatly into any scheme. However, my hope is having an organizational scheme will make it easier for people to use as well as prompt additional suggestions, realizing that no one size fits all owners and all countries.
Consult attorney and/or tax advisor on the following questions:
-- given your own circumstances should you set up a family trust, or is it sufficient just to make sure the vehicle titles also are in your spouse's name?
-- should you gift the motorcycles now to sons/daughters? There may be a time rule (e.g. 7 years) to avoid inheritance taxes.
Preparing for the Inevitable: (in all cases make sure your spouse knows where the relevant documents are located)
-- get clean titles to all motorcycles and basket cases that are in your garage.
-- if necessary, change the titles of all the motor vehicles to be in both yours and your spouse's name, or in the name of your trust (the choice of wording on motor vehicle records is important; "and" doesn't mean the same thing as "or").
-- compile a book or spreadsheet with details and notes on important numbers on everything in the garage (e.g. +1900 for a Vincent), and with your estimates of the current worth of each item.
-- get important documentation from owners clubs on things that affect the value (e.g. a letter from the BSA OC showing your Gold Star's engine and frame left the factory together).
-- gather into one location other documentation that might affect value (e.g. your bike on the cover of 'Classic Bike', a letter from Steve McQueen saying he won the ISDT on it, etc.) .
-- arrange a mutual assistance pact with trusted friends to help your widow.
-- make list of friends who can be trusted, and those who can't be.
-- investigate the "best" auction house and venue for selling bikes and parts like you have (e.g. Sothebys' January Las Vegas auction). That is, if you were going to sell your bikes yourself today via auction, which would you use?
Possibilities for selling complete bikes: (figure out which is best for your collection and leave those notes for your spouse)
-- eBay listing. This may be a good choice for popular machines.
-- for people in the UK, have the VOC Spares Company sell it.
-- consign to auction house (will only net ~75% of retail after paying transportation and commission).
-- a reduced commission might be negotiable.
-- consider offering to auction house as 'no reserve' to help negotiate lower commission.
-- sell as a lot to a dealer (investigate the names of appropriate dealer(s) and leave those notes for your spouse).
-- turn over to someone you recommend to sell bikes for you, based on either a fixed commission (e.g. 10%), or on a fixed value (e.g. your spouse wants $20k for a given bike and anything over that is theirs).
-- gift to a non-profit museum (consult tax advisor to see if this helps financially).
-- advertise in club magazines.
Possibilities for selling parts: (this is more problematic because of the volume of parts and probably their lack of organization, the difficulty of identifying each part, listing, packing, and shipping it.
-- turn over to auction house to sell. Likely will realize only 25-50% of retail value, and not all auction houses even will deal with parts.
-- turn over to someone you recommend to sell the parts for you, based either on a fixed commission for each part or on a fixed value for the entire collection.
As a final note that applies to me as much as to anyone else, don't let the impossibility of preparing a "perfect" plan detour you from doing as much as possible. Difficult as everything above is to do, it would be much more difficult for anyone other than you to do it after you're gone.
Although I've tried to categorize things, some items don't fit neatly into any scheme. However, my hope is having an organizational scheme will make it easier for people to use as well as prompt additional suggestions, realizing that no one size fits all owners and all countries.
Consult attorney and/or tax advisor on the following questions:
-- given your own circumstances should you set up a family trust, or is it sufficient just to make sure the vehicle titles also are in your spouse's name?
-- should you gift the motorcycles now to sons/daughters? There may be a time rule (e.g. 7 years) to avoid inheritance taxes.
Preparing for the Inevitable: (in all cases make sure your spouse knows where the relevant documents are located)
-- get clean titles to all motorcycles and basket cases that are in your garage.
-- if necessary, change the titles of all the motor vehicles to be in both yours and your spouse's name, or in the name of your trust (the choice of wording on motor vehicle records is important; "and" doesn't mean the same thing as "or").
-- compile a book or spreadsheet with details and notes on important numbers on everything in the garage (e.g. +1900 for a Vincent), and with your estimates of the current worth of each item.
-- get important documentation from owners clubs on things that affect the value (e.g. a letter from the BSA OC showing your Gold Star's engine and frame left the factory together).
-- gather into one location other documentation that might affect value (e.g. your bike on the cover of 'Classic Bike', a letter from Steve McQueen saying he won the ISDT on it, etc.) .
-- arrange a mutual assistance pact with trusted friends to help your widow.
-- make list of friends who can be trusted, and those who can't be.
-- investigate the "best" auction house and venue for selling bikes and parts like you have (e.g. Sothebys' January Las Vegas auction). That is, if you were going to sell your bikes yourself today via auction, which would you use?
Possibilities for selling complete bikes: (figure out which is best for your collection and leave those notes for your spouse)
-- eBay listing. This may be a good choice for popular machines.
-- for people in the UK, have the VOC Spares Company sell it.
-- consign to auction house (will only net ~75% of retail after paying transportation and commission).
-- a reduced commission might be negotiable.
-- consider offering to auction house as 'no reserve' to help negotiate lower commission.
-- sell as a lot to a dealer (investigate the names of appropriate dealer(s) and leave those notes for your spouse).
-- turn over to someone you recommend to sell bikes for you, based on either a fixed commission (e.g. 10%), or on a fixed value (e.g. your spouse wants $20k for a given bike and anything over that is theirs).
-- gift to a non-profit museum (consult tax advisor to see if this helps financially).
-- advertise in club magazines.
Possibilities for selling parts: (this is more problematic because of the volume of parts and probably their lack of organization, the difficulty of identifying each part, listing, packing, and shipping it.
-- turn over to auction house to sell. Likely will realize only 25-50% of retail value, and not all auction houses even will deal with parts.
-- turn over to someone you recommend to sell the parts for you, based either on a fixed commission for each part or on a fixed value for the entire collection.
As a final note that applies to me as much as to anyone else, don't let the impossibility of preparing a "perfect" plan detour you from doing as much as possible. Difficult as everything above is to do, it would be much more difficult for anyone other than you to do it after you're gone.