First Black Shadow - Stevenage workers

Simon Dinsdale

VOC Machine Registrar
VOC Member
VOC Forum Moderator
David
Mating numbers were stamped by the Vincent factory when the raw crankcase castings were recieved direct from the casting company and before any machining was even started. That way they didn't repeat mating numbers.
The comment about porous castings and the first Black Shadows using reject porous cases comes from Marcus Bowden who says Philip Vincent told him that in person. When this was I don't know but it would be a lot of years after the factory closed. I have never come across the British Salmson story before.
 

Flylow

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
It does beg the question:
Is there a twin with a sequential engine number/mating numbers directly before or after JRO 102?
 

craig

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Until the cases were painted they were indistinguishable from Rapide cases.

David
I am not sure this is entirely true, The B Shadow engine castings (HRD) seem to be same, while the C (Vincent) Shadow engine castings appear distinctly different at the the stamping location.
 

Alyson

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
I am not sure this is entirely true, The B Shadow engine castings (HRD) seem to be same, while the C (Vincent) Shadow engine castings appear distinctly different at the the stamping location.
Hi Craig, I think what is being referred to is the porosity of the aluminum. Slightly off topic, I heard ages ago that the Harley cam covers were poured from the shavings off the floor after the engine cases were milled, hence a different looking casting. As The Vincent engine cases were cast "by others", as stated previously, and, if old aluminum was used on B models. Remember this was just after the war and was surplus aluminum being used by the foundries ? Did they care how "dirty" it was ?

I agree the stamping pad is slightly ineffecient. But then again, I've seen V.I.N.s stamped between the embossed "Made in England" and "Vincent" portions rather than using the pad. Just thinking out loud again ;) Alyson
 

Simon Dinsdale

VOC Machine Registrar
VOC Member
VOC Forum Moderator
It does beg the question:
Is there a twin with a sequential engine number/mating numbers directly before or after JRO 102?
Thats easy to answer - no.
JRO 102 is strangely out of sync with its mating number (but correct) but there is no other with a remotely similar discrepancy.

I do wonder if the fabled 2nd bike was actually Gunga Din going through one of its numberous rebuilds. After all it was a race bike and factory hack that was used and abused and had regular upgrades. Originally it would have been an unpainted engine but at some time the engine was painted black because later photos of Gunga Din show a black engine.
 

Dominique2

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Thank you very much Simon ! sometimes I wondered if the second black shadow Phil Irving was talking about was not Gunga Din...
 

Flylow

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
That's easy to answer - no.
JRO 102 is strangely out of sync with its mating number (but correct) but there is no other with a remotely similar discrepancy.

I do wonder if the fabled 2nd bike was actually Gunga Din going through one of its numerous rebuilds. After all it was a race bike and factory hack that was used and abused and had regular upgrades. Originally it would have been an unpainted engine but at some time the engine was painted black because later photos of Gunga Din show a black engine.

Thank you, Simon. Very interesting all together.
 

Marcus Bowden

VOC Hon. Overseas Representative
VOC Member
I would not think that mating numbers were stamped on cases until they were machined together after pairing off together as mains and cylinder bores and surfaces would have definitely be done together then matching numbers stamp on. All openings were sealed off with covers then submersed into a tank of water and pressure tested with air. Leaking ones put to one side and perfect ones built up as Rapide's. As after the first few were built and returning from road testing dripping oil that was a lot of work so pressure testing was essential before assembly. Mr Vincent told me that there was an abundance of porous cases and had to use them so developing a system of submersing them in shellac in a vat and extracting the air, releasing the "vacuum" the porosity was sealed, rinsed off etching primer of chromate and stove enamel black, made it go 15 MPH faster with ribbed drums 1/16" bigger carbs, selected components and an impressive speedometer.
Typical manufacturer, get a poor product tittivated up and sell it for more. The cost difference was very little and the profit margin even less. Although have never seen failed crankcases as they were so immensely strong, after the die castings were introduced on the "D's" the cases were not painted but the last few "C" B.S. had black cases.
After the 1969 dinner dance when PCV, & HRD first met there were in attendance a couple of Vincent dealers one being my local friend Pat Wilson who was the Wilson of Lawton & Wilson of Southampton. On the Sunday morning at breakfast Pat invited PCV to breakfast then offered to run him home to London treating us both to lunch at Kettener's at the west end returning PCV to No7, Queue Bridge apartments. Every time leaving the banana boat in Southampton I hired a car to get home via No7, Queue Bridge and took Mr Vincent a stem of bananas & a Large bottle Whisky but he kept the whole bottle but only cut a few hands of bananas off the stem. It all stopped in 1972 when I had called and no one was in so left the Whisky behind the milk bottles, just about to leave and an ambulance arrived and PCV was struggling with a stick trying to walk (this was his first stroke). I've got something to show you Marcus, so I picked him up in my arms and carried him up three flights of steps Elfreda going on before to open the door. `````what he had to show me was three connecting rods made from titanium with forked ends, but when placed together in a certain way the piston eyes were all in the same plain. These items were for his rotary engine with a cylinder block rotating one way and the crankshaft the other with the inlet & exhaust ports being the same size as the bores, two stroke cycle, blowered on start up and turbocharged when producing power.
Made into banks that could be clutched in or out of drive for ships engines onto a common propeller shaft. Burning heavy fuel oil. He always spoke to me with such enthusiasm into my world of ships engines but the reliance of oil film sealing on the peripheral of the cylinder bock inside of the stationary block was a weak point.
Like I said he had suffered a stroke but it did not stop him from talking but his speech was very slurred and dribbling all the time, Elfreda was trying to put a meal on the table so I took over the handkerchief duty of wiping his mouth but she made it clear that she did not wont me to call again as I think it was an embarrassment to to her so never went back again although now I think he would have appreciated it.
Meeting Dee V.D. on the steps of Barcelona town hall in 1989 at the FIM Rally I said her father all ways took the whole bottle of whisky but only a few hands of bananas, she stood back and pointed a figer at me and said so your the bananaman, and thats how I got it. She was only little then.
 
Last edited:

delboy

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
I would not think that mating numbers were stamped on cases until they were machined together after pairing off together as mains and cylinder bores and surfaces would have definitely be done together then matching numbers stamp on. All openings were sealed off with covers then submersed into a tank of water and pressure tested with air. Leaking ones put to one side and perfect ones built up as Rapide's. As after the first few were built and returning from road testing dripping oil that was a lot of work so pressure testing was essential before assembly. Mr Vincent told me that there was an abundance of porous cases and had to use them so developing a system of submersing them in shellac in a vat and extracting the air, releasing the "vacuum" the porosity was sealed, rinsed off etching primer of chromate and stove enamel black, made it go 15 MPH faster with ribbed drums 1/16" bigger carbs, selected components and an impressive speedometer.
Typical manufacturer, get a poor product tittivated up and sell it for more. The cost difference was very little and the profit margin even less. Although have never seen failed crankcases as they were so immensely strong, after the die castings were introduced on the "D's" the cases were not painted but the last few "C" B.S. had black cases.
After the 1969 dinner dance when PCV, & HRD first met there were in attendance a couple of Vincent dealers one being my local friend Pat Wilson who was the Wilson of Lawton & Wilson of Southampton. On the Sunday morning at breakfast Pat invited PCV to breakfast then offered to run him home to London treating us both to lunch at Kettener's at the west end returning PCV to No7, Queue Bridge apartments. Every time leaving the banana boat in Southampton I hired a car to get home via No7, Queue Bridge and took Mr Vincent a stem of bananas & a Large bottle Whisky but he kept the whole bottle but only cut a few hands of bananas off the stem. It all stopped in 1972 when I had called and no one was in so left the Whisky behind the milk bottles, just about to leave and an ambulance arrived and PCV was struggling with a stick trying to walk (this was his first stroke). I've got something to show you Marcus, so I picked him up in my arms and carried him up three flights of steps Elfreda going on before to open the door. `````what he had to show me was three connecting rods made from titanium with forked ends, but when placed together in a certain way the piston eyes were all in the same plain. These items were for his rotary engine with a cylinder block rotating one way and the crankshaft the other with the inlet & exhaust ports being the same size as the bores, two stroke cycle, blowered on start up and turbocharged when producing power.
Made into banks that could be clutched in or out of drive for ships engines onto a common propeller shaft. Burning heavy fuel oil. He always spoke to me with such enthusiasm into my world of ships engines but the reliance of oil film sealing on the peripheral of the cylinder bock inside of the stationary block was a weak point.
Like I said he had suffered a stroke but it did not stop him from talking but his speech was very slurred and dribbling all the time, Elfreda was trying to put a meal on the table so I took over the handkerchief duty of wiping his mouth but she made it clear that she did not wont me to call again as I think it was an embarrassment to to her so never went back again although now I think he would have appreciated it.
Meeting Dee V.D. on the steps of Barcelona town hall in 1989 at the FIM Rally I said her father all ways took the whole bottle of whisky but only a few hands of bananas, she stood back and pointed a figer at me and said so your the bananaman, and thats how I got it. She was only little then.
Marcus,
Rather than "Shellac", Jack Furness and Alf Searle told me the crankcases were submerged in "Isinglass" to treat any possible porosity.
I'll have to look Isinglass up.
There is also an article by PEI himself on Light Metals Feb 1950 which says -
"All machined cases are tested for pinhole porosity of the oil pump and filter chamber housings by application of Sodium-Silicate solution under pressure. Any which show signs of leakage are simply left on test until the silicate seals the pores."
This has been in MPH in the past.
Cheers,
Delboy.
 

Garth Robinson

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Marcus,
Rather than "Shellac", Jack Furness and Alf Searle told me the crankcases were submerged in "Isinglass" to treat any possible porosity.
I'll have to look Isinglass up.
There is also an article by PEI himself on Light Metals Feb 1950 which says -
"All machined cases are tested for pinhole porosity of the oil pump and filter chamber housings by application of Sodium-Silicate solution under pressure. Any which show signs of leakage are simply left on test until the silicate seals the pores."
This has been in MPH in the past.
Cheers,
Delboy.
I recall,at a VOC rally in Canberra in the 1980's that Phil Irving gave a talk about problems suffered in early production,and crankcase porosity was one.The story he told was that at a hardware store in the High St.of Stevenage he acquired a supply of Isinglass which was used to seal the cases.I used to do home brewing and I believe Isinglass is used to clarify cloudy brews.I think a video of that rally and his talk is on Youtube,but it might have been edited a bit.
 
Top