F: Frame Coil Over Damper

[greg brillus]

A coil over on the front end is definitely the best option to free up the girdraulic forks........there are several issues that make it somewhat difficult........ Limited space is the biggest hurdle.......trying to keep the shocker body and the spring away from the rear of the upper link is the big one.......but also the minimal travel available. The lugs on the FF1 are probably on the limit if used on a twin with all the features and extra weight of a road bike with all its equipment.......Some of us have done it on racers and on mine, with the JE modified stem, plus the modern coilover in place of the stock shock absorber, needle rollers in place of all the FF6 bushes and Titanium spindles to finish it all off.......From my experience on these bikes thus far, it was easily the best Vincent front end ever.........Of course all these things can be done to a lesser extent with I feel still excellent results, the common problem is making batches of parts that anyone might want and to what cost........A short while ago I had Ikon here in Australia make me a batch of 10 special re- valved shocks to my specs that were "Special order" that they would not make and sell to anyone else.........Probably a bit like the ones made for Laney Thornton.......Anyway these are all gone now.......They were set up far, far softer than the stock Ikon ones........I explained to their engineer that a Vincent simply does not need a stiff heavy action front shock absorber........if there is any doubt ......Look at the damping on a set of Bramptons......the unsprung weight is basically the same.......The inbuilt friction of the spindles/bushes takes care of that......... I have just received a Shadow in my shop from a new customer who had only ridden the bike once since he bought it about 3 years ago....... I physically could not push the front end up/down on the bars........even when rolling the bike forward the front end was near seized.......This turned out to be no more than the remnants of some old hard grease and grit on the sliding walls of the front spring cases.......once removed and washed clean, the tubes telescoped beautifully again.......friction counts for everything on these front ends.

 

[Tnecniv Edipar]

So it seems there are very few options for Vincent dampers/shocks at the present time, it's probably a good idea to find a solution to this.
I know I won't be using the standard arrangement, at least from a damper perspective, as they are crude to say the least, both in design and function! I did have one UK manufacturer in mind but although they did once look at the application it was not pursued for various reasons.
What types are owners using as we speak? Please respond to this thread so it can be assessed.

 

[timetraveller]

Hello Tnecniv, here is a response to your request. I am the chap who provides the John Emanuel steering heads. Over the years this has evolved from just being the steering heads to a full kit which includes the Greg Brillus mod of ball races in the rear of the lower link, softer springs, AVO dampers and now hydraulic steering dampers. I also provide the rear AVO coil over dampers for people who want the most comfortable and safest ride. People can have as much or as little of the whole kit as they wish. It took quite a lot of testing and experimenting to get the best out of the system and in this the help of Chris Launders was invaluable. There are at least two videos on this forum, one from Chris Launders and one from Chris and Tracey Tilley which show the action of the front forks on normal roads. So far as I know everyone who is still racing a Vincent in a standard chassis are using this set up. It could be regarded as a major improvement to the safety and comfort of the Vincent marque. In addition, at the front end the appearance is hardly changed, the steering damper excluded. I have now sold about three hundred and ten of these kits and in every case the feedback has been positive. So, when it comes to the use of AVO dampers there are many people out there, including those who have just stayed with the standard set up but fitted modern dampers, who are happy with these dampers. That does not mean that it could not be improved upon. A single coil over damper at the front could well be an improvement but note Gregs comments above. A fully loaded road bike would put a lot of strain on the top mounting which was only ever meant to take damper loads, not spring plus damper loads. Perhaps I should point out that I have no connection with AVO other than as a customer. So, if you want to start from scratch with a new damper manufacturer, I suggest using the AVO system as a starting point and working from there. You will find that there are restrictions at both the front and rear ends as to how much space and what travel is possible but that does not mean that there cannot be improvements. If you can come up with some you will find that there are still Vincent owners who would like to improve their bikes without using a different chassis. Let us know how you get on.

 

[Vincent Brake]

I am building some bikes now, and as
Works P. does nt do them.

Approched Hyperpro.

Will take some time. As i like the same damping as WorksP.

Sorry, out of techincal point of view, dont like the Avos.

Later.

 

[Tnecniv Edipar]

Hello Tnecniv, here is a response to your request. I am the chap who provides the John Emanuel steering heads. Over the years this has evolved from just being the steering heads to a full kit which includes the Greg Brillus mod of ball races in the rear of the lower link, softer springs, AVO dampers and now hydraulic steering dampers. I also provide the rear AVO coil over dampers for people who want the most comfortable and safest ride. People can have as much or as little of the whole kit as they wish. It took quite a lot of testing and experimenting to get the best out of the system and in this the help of Chris Launders was invaluable. There are at least two videos on this forum, one from Chris Launders and one from Chris and Tracey Tilley which show the action of the front forks on normal roads. So far as I know everyone who is still racing a Vincent in a standard chassis are using this set up. It could be regarded as a major improvement to the safety and comfort of the Vincent marque. In addition, at the front end the appearance is hardly changed, the steering damper excluded. I have now sold about three hundred and ten of these kits and in every case the feedback has been positive. So, when it comes to the use of AVO dampers there are many people out there, including those who have just stayed with the standard set up but fitted modern dampers, who are happy with these dampers. That does not mean that it could not be improved upon. A single coil over damper at the front could well be an improvement but note Gregs comments above. A fully loaded road bike would put a lot of strain on the top mounting which was only ever meant to take damper loads, not spring plus damper loads. Perhaps I should point out that I have no connection with AVO other than as a customer. So, if you want to start from scratch with a new damper manufacturer, I suggest using the AVO system as a starting point and working from there. You will find that there are restrictions at both the front and rear ends as to how much space and what travel is possible but that does not mean that there cannot be improvements. If you can come up with some you will find that there are still Vincent owners who would like to improve their bikes without using a different chassis. Let us know how you get on.

Thanks for your reply.
I have to admit I wasn't aware that the Avo stuff was as advanced as it is!! Last time I looked they had only just started to offer Vincent dampers and they looked nothing like those that I have just seen on their website! Tell me, I might be missing something, but they are showing 3 units for the rear of a C type twin, is that 2 spring units and a damper?

 

[Peter Holmes]

Whilst attending the Far Far North Rally this year, The Outer Hebrides (Great Rally again by the way) I had a conversation with a Vincent owner ( sorry, name now forgotten) he had custom Vincent suspension provided by well respected suspension specialists Maxton, the front unit for the girdraulic forks was a coil over, as was the rear unit, he assured me that Maxton held details on file of these units, and could replicate them if the demand was there. I think I would be correct in saying the chap in question attended the rally with his wife, and they were riding a new style Triumph sidecar outfit.

 

[Tnecniv Edipar]

Whilst attending the Far Far North Rally this year, The Outer Hebrides (Great Rally again by the way) I had a conversation with a Vincent owner ( sorry, name now forgotten) he had custom Vincent suspension provided by well respected suspension specialists Maxton, the front unit for the girdraulic forks was a coil over, as was the rear unit, he assured me that Maxton held details on file of these units, and could replicate them if the demand was there. I think I would be correct in saying the chap in question attended the rally with his wife, and they were riding a new style Triumph sidecar outfit.

Interesting! Maxton is the company I've spoken with and they said they had made a one off but have no plans to offer it again, due to a/ probable lack of demand and b/ the type of unit they based it on they no longer make. They also mentioned that the feedback from Vincent owners was unfavorable due to it's relatively modern appearance! It is unfortunate because Maxton stuff is superb, I have one of their units on my MV and it's transformed the handling and ride quality, with build quality second to none. They also manufacture everything in house, bar springs, which are purchased from a Sheffield company that are 100% uk made. I'll be using Maxton stuff on my Ducati 750 round case next year, shocks and the internals on the Marzocchi forks. It seems that the Avo stuff is pretty good though, so maybe thats ok for now. Would be good to have an alternative though, as a contingency.

 

[timetraveller]

Please don't take this as the definitive answer. For that you would need to talk to AVO, but my understanding is that for the rear you have a choice of their offset lower mounted damper which should work with Pettiford and standard rear springs and the coil over. The problem with trying to put a damper between two standard rear springs is the limited movement. I think that is why they went for the offset bottom mount. Neither will look completely standard, so the owner has to make a choice of their priorities. To put the total movement into some sort of context; several years ago, I acted as ballast in Dick Sherwin's Comet and sidecar outfit on a trip through France and Belgium. I had plenty of time to watch the front suspension movement and the spring cases were moving about 3/4 inch, even over level crossings. My impression was that much of the suspension was the front tyre. With a solo we get about 3.5 inches of spring box movement with the JE plus AVO set up, all well controlled by the AVO.

 

[Sten Jensen]

Does the standard AVO rear shock look like a std Vin shock? The website says Generic Image.

Above the AVO rear damper which is somewhat bigger than the std. Vincent damper and will not fit in front. The AVO front damper fits the girdraulic but it will be difficult to fit a spring on this.
I also believe that the AVO front needs to be positioned same way as the original Vincent. i.e. the rod coming out of the top. Unlike the Works damper which I believe was fitted 'upside down'.

 

[Sten Jensen]

This is Godets version of the Works damper.
Very nice but made in small numbers so probably also very expensive ;-)
The rear damper on the same bike seems to be a coil-over AVO like the one in my pictures.