Misc: Charging Systems Alternators

[SteveO]

Hi all,
I've been suffering from a charging fault for some time on my 1951 Rapide, fitted with an Alton of unknown age. I did think for a time it was a wiring fault, as the wiring was, shall we say, slightly idiosyncratic. I have now had a chance to correct the wiring, still nothing from the Alton. No output whatsoever from the leads from the alternator to earth. A friend has supplied me with a "Powerdynamo" of German manufacture, which he bought some time ago to fit to a Comet, but never used. Has anyone any experience of these? It is a completely self contained unit with the rectifier and regulator built in. Along with the Powerdynamo came some paperwork and some emails from one of my other mates (who was thinking of fitting it to a Velocette) to the makers, in which they said it had been withdrawn from the market as it was prone to seizure if it got hot. On no account should it be driven by a gear or chain, although belt was OK (presumably since if it seized the belt would just slip or break). So my question is, is this alarmist, or has anyone experienced problems with this item (on any make of bike - the original fitment seems to be for a pre-unit Triumph)? I'm now having serious second thoughts about fitting it. Where would I get the Alton repaired/overhauled? Do I need to send it back to France?

 

[erik]

Normally there is no wire from the Alton to earth! there is an ac current which you should messure. Then the rectifier makes dc and is connected to the ground .If the rectifier is kaputt there is no charge, although .Erik

 

[Comet Rider]

Hi Steve,
To follow on from Erik's comments;

1/ Do you know how to use a multimeter?
2/ How may wires coming out of the Alton, running to the reg/rec?

If you can answer these, we can move forwards

 

[flxible]

Hi Steve-
As for the Powerdynamo, I've not used their product on the Vin, but have used their charging system and electronic ignition on the Earles fork BMW twin in my sidecar rig, and my experience has been good.
They appear to be a company that evolves their product when issues come to light.
For instance with the BMW, their initial offering was triggering the electronic ignition off the cam nose, same as the stock mag, but with the cam spinning at half revs during kickstart it sometimes had difficulty picking up enough signals for the electronics to decide when to fire, especially if a lightened flywheel was in use.
They switched to a trigger located on the their gen, (located where the stock 6v gen was- on the crank nose) and with twice the signals it works a treat.
I've been using it going on 5 years now, without issue, not a lot of mileage, but enough to judge; probably a hundred miles a week, and running it in the occasional regional giro-type comp, as well as in the USCRA spring and fall MotoGiro each year, which is two days 7-8 hours a day event, so it does get well warmed up, and it's been fault free thus far.
But my point is, if their product is of interest, and it presently has an issue, keep an eye on it as they may very well figure out its reliability issues.
Best-
George

 

[SteveO]

Hi Steve,
To follow on from Erik's comments;

1/ Do you know how to use a multimeter?
2/ How may wires coming out of the Alton, running to the reg/rec?

If you can answer these, we can move forwards

Well, I'd like to think I can. I wanted to test the alternator output independently to the regulator/rectifier for the reason Erik pointed out; there would be no charge if the latter was kaputt. The reg/rectifier is a Podtronics type unit, so the Alton, as you say, has no connection to earth. It has two black leads which go to the yellow leads on the Podtronic, the Podtronic then has a red, live lead to the charge side of the ammeter and a final black lead to earth. There was no charge on the ammeter, so I tried first getting a reading off the red lead, nothing, then removed the two yellow leads and went directly to the Alton. Still nothing. I tried connecting the two leads across the meter and also taking one lead through the meter to earth. Still got nothing. I should be getting something like 12.6V AC from the alternator with the engine running shouldn't I? I should mention that the Alton is off the bike now, is there a way of bench testing it? Presumably I could spin it over in the drill chuck? Can the Podtronics unit be tested?

 

[SteveO]

Hi Steve-
As for the Powerdynamo, I've not used their product on the Vin, but have used their charging system and electronic ignition on the Earles fork BMW twin in my sidecar rig, and my experience has been good.
They appear to be a company that evolves their product when issues come to light.
For instance with the BMW, their initial offering was triggering the electronic ignition off the cam nose, same as the stock mag, but with the cam spinning at half revs during kickstart it sometimes had difficulty picking up enough signals for the electronics to decide when to fire, especially if a lightened flywheel was in use.
They switched to a trigger located on the their gen, (located where the stock 6v gen was- on the crank nose) and with twice the signals it works a treat.
I've been using it going on 5 years now, without issue, not a lot of mileage, but enough to judge; probably a hundred miles a week, and running it in the occasional regional giro-type comp, as well as in the USCRA spring and fall MotoGiro each year, which is two days 7-8 hours a day event, so it does get well warmed up, and it's been fault free thus far.
But my point is, if their product is of interest, and it presently has an issue, keep an eye on it as they may very well figure out its reliability issues.
Best-
George

George,
Thanks for your response. The issue is that the Powerdynamo is now about 8 years old or older. The email exchange dates from 2014, so the unit is a) well out of any warranty, b) probably superseded, given that the manufacturer has identified a problem with it.

 

[Comet Rider]

Well, I'd like to think I can. I wanted to test the alternator output independently to the regulator/rectifier for the reason Erik pointed out; there would be no charge if the latter was kaputt. The reg/rectifier is a Podtronics type unit, so the Alton, as you say, has no connection to earth. It has two black leads which go to the yellow leads on the Podtronic, the Podtronic then has a red, live lead to the charge side of the ammeter and a final black lead to earth. There was no charge on the ammeter, so I tried first getting a reading off the red lead, nothing, then removed the two yellow leads and went directly to the Alton. Still nothing. I tried connecting the two leads across the meter and also taking one lead through the meter to earth. Still got nothing. I should be getting something like 12.6V AC from the alternator with the engine running shouldn't I? I should mention that the Alton is off the bike now, is there a way of bench testing it? Presumably I could spin it over in the drill chuck? Can the Podtronics unit be tested?

Hi Steve,
Between the 2 black wires you should be getting around 20 VAC to go into the reg/rec.
You should be able to spin the Alton over using a battery drill on the end of the drive of the Alton.
It does sound as tho' the Alton is dead inside. Some of the early ones used gears to speed up the Alton, and when the grease dried out the gears can fail.
Try contacting Alton via their website www.alton-france.com

Best of luck
Neil

 

[SteveO]

Hi Steve,
Between the 2 black wires you should be getting around 20 VAC to go into the reg/rec.
You should be able to spin the Alton over using a battery drill on the end of the drive of the Alton.
It does sound as tho' the Alton is dead inside. Some of the early ones used gears to speed up the Alton, and when the grease dried out the gears can fail.
Try contacting Alton via their website www.alton-france.com

Best of luck
Neil

I can't spin the Alton over as the drive shaft is too big for the chuck! Rats! I've tried a continuity test using the meter and get infinity across the two wires. I should get 0 or close to it shouldn't I? Does this imply a broken wire somewhere within the windings? I'm never sure with alternators. Thanks for the link for Alton, I'll give that a try, although I can't imagine what the postage would be to France, perhaps DHL or WHY.

 

[Robert Watson]

Many of the versions of the early Altons failed, either mechanically ( stripped gears) or electrically (failed wiring) The current version works very well. I would suggest contacting Alton, and let them have a look at it.

 

[oexing]

When spinning the Alton by fingers you should feel some ripple from magnetic poles passing the field coils. If not so, the internal drive in a geared Alton is duff.
Basically the Alton and other permanent magnet alternators got a rotor with magnets and a set of coils around it which produce electricity - and AC in this case , no DC yet. Only the regulator hooked to the alternator will convert all AC power for DC and limits output to 14 V resp. 7 V for charging the battery.
So best way for testing an alternator is to spin the thing with a small bulb connected to any two wires from the alternator, once you have checked continuity in two or three wires between all of them. There are single phase or three phase alternators, no matter. The bulb test will at least show there is a minimum of AC power from the alternator, not to be confused by some digital wild effects in a multimeter. If you get the bulb light up when connected to any two wires , 2ph or 3ph type no matter, then the alternator will be allright more or less and the regulator is shot on the bike.
Below a type of three phase alternator shown with permanent magnets rotor and power coils around it.
As to Power Dynamo, there is no more distributor active. You´d have to contact the VAPE company in Czechia and they seem to be too busy to deal with inquiries from customers.

Vic