H: Hubs, Wheels and Tyres Front brake help please

Peter Holmes

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Alternatively contact someone that deals with classic motorcycle brakes, and has done so for many years, Classic Brake Services. I don’t send them my brake drums, I just internally micrometer the brake drum diameter and send them the brake plates and shoes, they send me back perfectly sized brakes, works for me, satisfied customer.
 
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tigervinnie

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@ Carl . We live in different country with different lows for roadgoing vehicles ! AND we have all different ideas how a vintage bike should look ! With TÜV you have no chance to convert a vincent motorcycle to disc brakes .S the wise manRoy Cross is only a prophet in America and not here in Germany. Regards Erik
@ erik. Sorry mate, but you‘re wrong. I converted my and the twin of my wife to bikes with disc brakes. It was a lot of work and I had no contact with the TÜV before I did the conversion. I used a complete set of Spiegler with 4 pot caliper, radial master cylinder and 320 mm wave disk. The adapter plate I made by myself from thick aircraft alloy. Its very easy to go back to standard brakes because I destroyed nothing of the original parts. Lets not talk about the look and the reason for disc brakes.
Reinhard
 

davidd

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Experimenting with linings is always interesting. Many brake linings contain petroleum products such as resins. All of the resins I have been exposed to seem to degrade over time. I suspect that this happens to the resins used in brake lining too. So, old age might be dangerous for linings!

The list of ingredients in brake linings is always interesting and many contain cashew nut dust. I assume it is a good abrasive, but it does make me wonder about the "use by" date. Metals are often used in brake linings because the coefficient of friction is usually good, but the addition of metal particles also conducts heat well and evens out the temperature of the lining over the entire shoe.

Modern high-performance linings for drum brakes contain ingredients that coat the drum surface with a film. The benefit is that the lining has a very high coefficient of friction with itself, that is, the film that has been transferred to the cast iron drum. This means that a good brake tuner is concerned about the layer of film on the drum surface. They usually want the drum to be skimmed so the traces of the last brake lining are removed because it may not be compatible with the new lining. I opt for a good cleaning instead.

There are usually two problems that are difficult to fix. First, the H48s have to be perfectly flat and smooth. any damage and the brake will not work properly. The H48 plates usually have a slight indentation from repeated use.

DSCN3492.jpg


This H48 was on the Comet Racer I got from John Renwick. It has indents on both sides. Once the H48 gets to this stage, the brakes will not work well. The brake cam will fall into the indentation and no matter how hard you pull you will not slow down anymore.

Second, I don't hear much talk about the break-in procedure for new linings. If the linings are not broken in properly, they will never achieve maximum bite.

D3920.GIF.GIF

This is the graph of a Ferotec lining 3921, which I believe are the linings used in many of Godet's bikes. Dick Hunt uses this lining for front and rear, but it is mostly used as a rear lining on race bikes.

The first graph on the left shows the number of applications of the brake. Note that the more the brake is used, the higher the friction becomes. I have often heard it said that you can't get max braking until you have applied the brakes at least 75 times.

Just as a guide, AM4 lining has a coefficient of 0.44 on the vertical scale. I don't have a materials test graph for AM4.

This is the graph for Vintage Brake 2540V, which is generally the best race lining:

2520V Graph 01.PNG

The flatness of the lines are very impressive. The friction is high with little or no fading. Also, the number of applications before the maximum bite is achieved is quite small as shown on the baseline curve.

David
 

Peter Holmes

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As always David's observations are incisive, I have also come across worn/dented H48s, the material they are made from is of quite a thin gauge metal, would it perform better if a small amount of the brake shoe was removed and the H48 made a mm thicker, also what is considered the best material for anti wear properties, I am sure the original ones were mild steel, and prone to corrosion, latterly I have seen stainless steel of unknown grade, stainless steel has work hardening properties, or so I am told, is that a good thing, a thicker, work hardening stainless steel H48?
 
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timetraveller

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A while ago when I was supplying new brake shoes I did wonder if design of the H48 region could be improved. Remember that the shoes were new castings and they could have been changed. What I had in mind was a thing like a top hat bush with a large head and thin shaft which pushes into a hole in the end of the shoe rather than wrapping round it as the H48s do. The idea was that the head would be of relatively thick material and would not deform while at the same time not being able to slide sideways. New H28 were always supplied with the new shoes.
 
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CarlHungness

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@ Carl . We live in different country with different lows for roadgoing vehicles ! AND we have all different ideas how a vintage bike should look ! With TÜV you have no chance to convert a vincent motorcycle to disc brakes .S the wise manRoy Cross is only a prophet in America and not here in Germany. Regards Erik
Hi:
Sorry, not familiar with the TUV term. How a Vincent should LOOK means nothing to me when I have to stop the plot to save
my skin. A competent mechanic can remove the disc brakes and re-install the stock ones in a matter of about 20 minutes
total. Roy Cross knows more about Vincents (and machine shop work than I'll ever know) and his advice is top drawer. he
installed three after market clutches in his three machines and later said, "If I knew then what I know now about the Vincent
clutch I would have never made the change." Tottering along on your Vincent and encountering a must stop situation will
convince you the stock brakes are not man enough to do the job.
 

Chris Launders

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A while ago when I supplying new brake shoes I did wonder if design of the H48 region could be improved. Remember that the shoes were new castings and they could have been changed. What I had in mind was a thing like a top hat bush with a large head and thin shaft which pushes into a hole in the end of the shoe rather than wrapping round it as the H48s do. The idea was that the head would be of relatively thick material and would not deform while at the same time not being able to slide sideways. New H28 were always supplied with the new shoes.
AJS brake shoes had these buttons in the end. The 1920s Royal Enfield as fitted to several makes had a similar thing but with a thick oblong head.

177dsc01842.jpg
 

vibrac

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A while ago when I supplying new brake shoes I did wonder if design of the H48 region could be improved. Remember that the shoes were new castings and they could have been changed. What I had in mind was a thing like a top hat bush with a large head and thin shaft which pushes into a hole in the end of the shoe rather than wrapping round it as the H48s do. The idea was that the head would be of relatively thick material and would not deform while at the same time not being able to slide sideways. New H28 were always supplied with the new shoes.
Its not often that AJS or Matchless design exceeds Vincent standards but what you describe is just what they did
 

kerry

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Tried my Shadow again yesterday with the woven type shoes, still spongy but a very noticeable improvement.
If these are not really good once bedded in I intend to fit 8" and assume the German ones are the best available ?
Kerry.
 
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