ET: Engine (Twin) Rapide Gearbox - Very 'tight' gearchange

Phil Arundel

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
I have been following this thread closely,as I have been having similar problems with a motor I am building up at the moment.They are series B cases that I purchased "for spares" in 1973.Being out of use for that time,they weren't too bad.They had the camplate boss repaired by welding,a neat looking job.I fitted new bearings,spindles and oil pump and all went well.Came time to assemble the gearbox and the wheels fell off the cart.Unknown to me,the cases had not been used after the camplate spindle repair.A small blob of weld was restricting the movement of the quadrant gear in the roof of the gearbox.Heads and barrels were on,I hoped not to pull it all apart so soon.I got to work with a Dremel,a mechanics' mirror and a portable QI light,and in 3 hours it was done.
I was using a set of original gears,shafts and selector forks I had accumulated over time,but,on assembly I found the movement of the gear change much heavier than i am used to, with the change into third so heavy that I worried about breaking something.Nothing seemed obviously tight,so I removed the contents of the box.I dremeled the slots in the camplate with a green stone,but on re assembly nothing was different.
I then proceeded to substitute each gear,one at a time ,hoping to find an improvement,but no luck.Substituting selector forks and their bar was also no use.I was at my wits end now,and I recalled Bill mentioning the need for accuracy when repairing the spindle boss.As a last resort,I had a complete new set of gears I purchased on E Bay 6 or 7 years ago.I started by using the E Bay double gear,surprisingly, a perfect gear change.
On removing the cluster again,I measured the width of the double gears I had been using,and I found the 2 original gears I had tried measured 2.623 and 2.625 inches.The new gear which solved the problem measured 2.596 inches.I used a set of digital verniers for this,but close enough to show the difference.
I have always tried to avoid mixing up new and used bits,where ever possible,but it's the one time it paid off for me.I wonder if any other members purchased those gear sets,and if they had any luck with them.
Finally,when tightening the cover plate screws fully,the gearbox tightened up on the last half turn of the screws.Apart again.The layshaft bearings were Timken,and new.Compared to the old one I had taken out,the small radius on the inner race where the layshaft fits was slightly smaller on the new ones .Out with the Dremel again,to remove a poofteenth of metal from the shoulder on each end of the layshaft.Success.
As Bill said,they are all different.Now it's time to go to the timing chest.

Morning Garth,
Thanks for the insight to your gearbox troubles. The process of elimination I found very frustrating at times but immensely rewarding when my problem was solved.
The support from this forum helped me enormously so thanks again to all who put finger to keyboard.
Good luck with you rebuild - let us know how you get on.
Cheers
Phil.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Thanks Phil, I knew of that problem, So only use it above the gearbox, There is such a big gap where it was welded, If I ground the faces, There would not be room for the Barrels and Crank , Or the GEARS !!.
I had it done in 1980 by one of the Vin' menders, And raced it for 7 years, Now it's a Road Bike, Sometimes you have to do these Bodges, As long as it keeps these old Bikes going.
Cheers Bill.
 

Phil Arundel

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Thanks Phil, I knew of that problem, So only use it above the gearbox, There is such a big gap where it was welded, If I ground the faces, There would not be room for the Barrels and Crank , Or the GEARS !!.
I had it done in 1980 by one of the Vin' menders, And raced it for 7 years, Now it's a Road Bike, Sometimes you have to do these Bodges, As long as it keeps these old Bikes going.
Cheers Bill.
Sorry Bill, didn't mean to teach you how to suck eggs but thought I say just in case.
Back to the garage today to put pistons & barrels on. Happy days.
Cheers
Phil
 

Garth Robinson

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
The gearbox is a bit like a rocker/bearing assembly, once its together, you cannot see what's going on.........:D
I think that not being able to see what was happening was my main problem. There is obviously no way of observing what is happening with the cover on and things sag down a bit with it off. I can only guess that when the new spindle hole was machined it was slightly out of alignment and moved the camplate and selector forks to one side.
The cases had not been faced off after welding, all the necessary shims still were needed and the liners slid into the cases with a bit of persuasion. The case faces were a bit daggy after being stored that long, I put some through bolts in the bare cases and couldn't see daylight anywhere. It just seems to be a good welding job and an inaccurate machining job. Lucky the inaccurate double gear got me out of a jam. Bill isn't the only bodger on the forum!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

nkt267

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
I think that not being able to see what was happening was my main problem. There is obviously no way of observing what is happening with the cover on and things sag down a bit with it off. I can only guess that when the new spindle hole was machined it was slightly out of alignment and moved the camplate and selector forks to one side.
The cases had not been faced off after welding, all the necessary shims still were needed and the liners slid into the cases with a bit of persuasion. The case faces were a bit daggy after being stored that long, I put some through bolts in the bare cases and couldn't see daylight anywhere. It just seems to be a good welding job and an inaccurate machining job. Lucky the inaccurate double gear got me out of a jam. Bill isn't the only bodger on the forum!
He's got a lovely pair of turned legs;)
 

Phil Arundel

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
I think that not being able to see what was happening was my main problem. There is obviously no way of observing what is happening with the cover on and things sag down a bit with it off. I can only guess that when the new spindle hole was machined it was slightly out of alignment and moved the camplate and selector forks to one side.
The cases had not been faced off after welding, all the necessary shims still were needed and the liners slid into the cases with a bit of persuasion. The case faces were a bit daggy after being stored that long, I put some through bolts in the bare cases and couldn't see daylight anywhere. It just seems to be a good welding job and an inaccurate machining job. Lucky the inaccurate double gear got me out of a jam. Bill isn't the only bodger on the forum!
Morning Garth, not being able to see what was going on was exactly my problem. While the g/box end plate was off I could select all gears - when in place and tightened up I could not get 1st & neutral! I discovered that the end plate was lifting the lay shaft to a point where the selector plate could not rotate freely. It seemed like the gears were tight in the lay shaft or the selector arms were binding.....etc
A conversation with Steve at Maughan & Son pointed me to the problem I had & solved as a result - phew, at last, was my reaction.
I’m hoping for some plain sailing now but not holding my breath!! Good fun all the same.
It’s good to know that I’m not the only one standing at a bench listening to radio 2 with my head in a Vincent !
Cheers
Phil
 

Phil Arundel

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
He's got a lovely pair of turned legs;)
Perhaps I should add for anyone who has not followed all these threads that to allow the selector plate to rotate freely I had to grind a ‘few’ thou off the face off the selector plate bevel gear (I did this on a linisher). This gave some clearance so the plate was not pressing down on the selector arms when fully assembled.
Cheers
Phil
 
Top