• Welcome to the website of the Vincent H.R.D. Owners Club.

    Should you have any questions relating to the Vincent H.R.D. Owners Club, or Vincent H.R.D. motorcycles in general, please contact Graham Smith, Hon. Editor and Webmaster by calling 07977 001 025 or please CLICK HERE.

    You are unrecognised, and therefore, only have VERY restricted access to the many features of this website.

    If you have previously registered to use this forum, you should log in now. CLICK HERE.

    If you have never registered to use this website before, please CLICK HERE.

PD: Primary Drive Make your own Generator


BigEd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
VOC Forum Moderator
Can't help you timetraveller - my knowledge of electrical theory is limited ...

Meanwhile, back to the issue of turning a motor rated for 3000 RPM some higher amount. My concern was not aimed at the mechanical aspect, but since voltage increases as motor speed increases, wouldn't there be a risk of frying the battery, lights, ignition, etc. when those components are hit with significantly higher voltage?
My electrical knowledge is limited too. Voltage generated definitely needs to be limited to prevent recent unfortunate experience with halogen bulbs being blown to dust when the regulator malfunctions!:(
I think there may be some self-limiting effect with generators due to saturation. We need someone with in depth technical electrical know how to confirm this.
 

Little Honda

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Tim,
Didn`t Ernst Hegeler do exactly what you`re describing? I think there were some concerns over whether the timing gears were strong enough to cope with driving a charging system.
Looked like a very neat set up but would want to be sitting down if I was asking for a price.
Cheers
Dave
Look at his website: www.vinsparesgermany.com , look there for "specials".
(Link spelling and web address corrected. BigEd)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Little Honda

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Don´t confuse a nominal rating of, say, 3000 rpm and 12 V or 24 V at maybe 200 W with a speed limit . This is not the speed limit of the motor. The good old 6 V dynamo did 7500 at 6000 rpm crank speed - and that with brushes, collector and windings. So when putting a brushless motor at the same place, where´s the problem ?
I operate a three phase hf spindle motor on the lathe for a few grinding jobs when CBN hard turning is not suitable. That 48mm watercooled spindle has a nominal 2800 rpm speed at 50 Hz, 75 V. The inverter for it does 1000 Hz, so I can have around 60 000 rpm for small bores to grind. So 10 000 rpm is no big thing for these brushless motors, I guess.
Running a dynamo off the timing gears would not be a big load really, you get just 100 W smooth load at best, nothing compared to valve gear pulses. But the half time very low speed there is not great to generate some wattage. Why not keep the dynamo at its old place? The dynamo is really only the victim of the triplex chain, not the root of the problem. Most forumites will know my thinking of what causes the primary troubles and it is not the little dynamo at 60 W . There is only some higher load on the dynamo drive and motor when blipping the throttle and the inertia of the rotor is some factor. I could put the Miller armature on scales and compare it with the brushless permanent magnet rotor weight, my guess , the magnet is less weight, so a bonus for the brushless.

Vic
Vic, the Hegeler device deliveres 150W plus, reliably. It is driven not by a half time pinion, but by a gear drive
with internal gearing, which you can see in his catalogue at: www.vinsparesgermany.com. I did the testing of it by running it in a Comet (which does not need a dynamo alternative like the twin), but was the best test
bed, as a Comet is operated at much higher rev levels, like a twin. It was tested for several thousand kms,
both on a twin, as on the Comet and underwent some changes, before it was offered for sale. We did have
some break downs with the gear box due to wrong internal gearing, which was difficult to manufacture.
That has been solved, so far, and , up to now, no complaints of any sold generator since 3 years, now.
You may run your twin engine at electronic double ignition, full lights and tomtom sat-nav all day long,
without any problems. Ernst uses the free space of the dynamo of the twin for his starter solution.
This does not touch the triplex chain for starting.
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Thanks for pointing me to Hegeler´s pages, didn´t know the mod for driving a generator from the mag position. As suspected, you´d need some gearing to arrive at speeds for getting some wattage there. Only speaking for myself, I would never want to have another gear set to care for just for a generator. That was my incentive to ignore the then geared Alton and look elsewhere - to the brushless China motors. Just last night I had a look at some Kawa starter motor, the planetary gears appear almost identic to the Hegeler generator - just for the alternative effect - to get a gear reduction for max torque.
I´d be interested to see how the Hegeler starter was designed at the old dynamo position. Could not find anything at his web pages.
Eddy, you named the apparatus that controls the voltage in a generator system: The regulator ! So for that purpose you will get an electronic converter for 13.8 V and any power from a 24 or 48 V brushless will be limited to just these 13.8 V. There is no need for self-limiting properties in the alternator as the converter will take care for this. There is no basic difference to the old 6 V Miller or Lucas dynamos: Just wire one end of the field coils to the positive brush, no regulator connected, and you will get not only 6 V but way above 10 V when you rev it , only limited in voltage by the mechanical robustness of the armature for excessive speeds.
Self-limiting alternators and their systems are found in your pushbike dynamo, a AC permanent magnet alternator, no proper voltage limiter anywhere but limited by, well, self-limiting property. Same goes with most non-battery moped or scooter alternators, all bulbs are run on AC current at around 6 V.

Vic
 

Glenliman

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I have had a direct drive Alton on my Rapide for about 22,000 miles now.
Somewhere in there I tried a tiny LiFePO4 " Ballistic" battery. The battery melted when we were about 800 miles from home. That meltdown damaged the Alton and destroyed the Podtronics.

I sent the alternator to Alton and they refurbed it for a very reasonable fee.

Lithium batteries aside, I think the last iteration direct drive Alton is a great little unit. It looks similar to the original dynamo, has a lot more power, weighs less, gives you a 12 volt system, and being brushless, should last a very long time.

With converted Norton dual point/ dual coil ignition ( high draw) and my new Led headlight turned on to high beam, the electrical load is balanced at just over 40 mph in top Gear.
For anything other than downhill, this is too slow in 4th, so the Alton has quite a bit more output than needed.
I'm not sure that there is any advantage to having a more powerful charging system on the Vincent. It's a bit like having a glass that is filled to the brim with water, then pouring more water in the glass. It doesn't improve anything.
Changing to a modern electronic ignition would increase the excess power even more, but that just makes the regulator work harder ( get hotter).
The Alton will easily keep up with both the headlight and an electric vest on at quite slow speeds, no problem. The Led headlight is at least as bright as the 60/55 quartz that it replaced. For safety and legality, I run the headlight in daytime as well.



Glen
 

BigEd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
VOC Forum Moderator
Thanks for that Vic. My voltage problem is with the regulator for my 12 Volt alternator. I suspected the regulator and fitted a new spare but the overvoltage fault was repeated. When I made up a test rig with leads and the alternator mounted in my lathe everything functioned correctly. I am just going to do a double check of the components but I think they are OK which leaves me to think that my fault may be linked to one or more wiring faults on the bike that is perhaps a broken wire that makes intermittent contact.
 

timetraveller

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Ed. If there is no earth to the Walkernator it charges flat out the whole time. Check the earth connection to the regulator please.
 

bsaowner

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Can't help you timetraveller - my knowledge of electrical theory is limited to "don't put a fork in the power receptacle at home or you'll frizzy your hair". My practical knowledge is to throw money at an electrical problem until it's fixed. That said, if there's a way to avoid throwing $650 at an Alton, I'd like to pursue it.

Meanwhile, back to the issue of turning a motor rated for 3000 RPM some higher amount. My concern was not aimed at the mechanical aspect, but since voltage increases as motor speed increases, wouldn't there be a risk of frying the battery, lights, ignition, etc. when those components are hit with significantly higher voltage?
i can't help thinking that you could fork out the cash for an Alton and be riding the bike within a day, instead of trying to re-invent the wheel. I run two bikes with the latest type and they are absolutely fine, and yes the bikes do get ridden. 2-3 times a week and also at night to the pub!
 

JustPlainBill0

Website User
Non-VOC Member
i can't help thinking that you could fork out the cash for an Alton and be riding the bike within a day, instead of trying to re-invent the wheel. I run two bikes with the latest type and they are absolutely fine, and yes the bikes do get ridden. 2-3 times a week and also at night to the pub!
Maybe when you're 82 you too will find the chase as much, or more rewarding than the catch. Projects like this keep me learning, involved and not riding a rocking chair. (I also have a couple of other bikes to ride - and do, though not to a pub.)
 

bsaowner

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Maybe when you're 82 you too will find the chase as much, or more rewarding than the catch. Projects like this keep me learning, involved and not riding a rocking chair. (I also have a couple of other bikes to ride - and do, though not to a pub.)
you could be right, assuming I even make it to 82! good to hear that you're still riding though.
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Glen,
big question to your problem with the LiFePo4 battery is, what was the root of the defect and what was the consequence ? I´d rather believe the Podtronic went over the Jordan and only then the battery was cooked with overvoltage.
Anyway, I will get some motorbike rectifier from Aliexpress, for three phase brushless generators - three yellow wires/three phase motor - output into two wires positive and negative 12 V - more like 14 V in fact, I guess, for charging a battery. You can get them for 15.- to 25.- €€ and I expect them to handle all overvoltage coming from the 24 V or even 48 V AC brushless motors. A test will show, no big deal if the electronics send smoke signals. I could go for a 48 to 12 V converter anyway, but a motorbike rectifier would do both jobs, the converting of AC output from the brushless motor to DC plus limiting voltage to 14 V for battery charging. The Podtronic is way overprized at € 80.- something .
The typical modern motorbike alternator is mainly a three phase AC alternator, a large sort of flywheel with magnets in its rim, rotating around a set of coils . The current from three sets of coils is fed into - well, the motorbike rectifier. The small China brushless motors are basically the same principle, only the positions are changed: The magnetic rotor spins in the centre and the sets of coils surround the rotor.
And yes, I could have the Alton any day , for an acceptable sum. But then, I like to be creative and think about things someone else may not yet have come upon possibly. So especially in a forum more brains might come to even better ideas to benefit our community ?

Vic
Motorbike rectifiers Aliexpress
Rectifier 14.5 V 35 A
 

Glenliman

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Oexing wrote "I´d rather believe the Podtronic went over the Jordan and only then the battery was cooked with overvoltage."

I have three of these Podtronics regs mounted, so I would rather believe it was the battery that did everything in.
I bought 2 of these Ballistic batteries. They were expensive but the claim was that they would last ten years. Both were dead in 18 months.
A Google search for " Ballistic Battery problems" yields hours of reading. Maybe that's why the company shut down last year.

A search for Podtronics problems doesn't provide much reading at all.
From what I have seen of the Podtronics units, they are very dependable.
I believe Alton now supply Podtronics regulators with their Alternator kits.
Years ago they supplied another Chinese built reg that looked just like the Podtronics, but had different internals and was not so reliable.
Paul Hamon( Alton) wrote an article about this, I'll see if I can find it.

Glen
 

Glenliman

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Here is the Paul Hamon info. It's from an email discussion Paul and I had regarding shunt type regulators ( Podtronics)vs switching type ( Shendingen SH775)

Paul wrote

"Back to the experience of Alton : I mean the regulators we supply with the PM generators done to replace the 3 inch dynamos. It is important to know that some shunt type regulators are so BAD they destroy the coils of PM generators in a short time. After various experiences from multiple sources, we finally chose PODTRONIC to supply with our generators. They are shunt type, the most economical way (theoretically), but they are top quality.
We were very happy with test results. We supply them since end of 2012. This is now more than 6 years of very favorable feed backs with a very low number of issues."

Glen
 

timetraveller

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I'm out of my depth here, but then, when did that ever stop me having an opinion? My understanding is that 'shunt type regulators' are Zener diode systems, similar to those produced to go with the early Lucas alternators fitted to UK bikes in the 60s. I looked at the pictures of the regulators and all of them seem to have heat sinks which makes me suspicious. If so then these work by turning surplus charge into heat. You are thus taking all the possible power that the alternator can generate and turning some of it to heat, It is entirely possible that there is some electronic wizardry involved these days but if not then this is about as primitive a method of regulating a voltage as is possible. More sophisticated regulators work by modifying the current to the field coils and thus the alternator never generates more power than the bike needs. This latter system takes less power from the engine and drive system but is more expensive to make.
Is there someone out there who is competent in these matters who can give us a definitive explanation of what is going on here?
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Norman,
I am pretty sure the modern regulators don´t apply Zener diodes which produce a short to earth above their fixed voltage maximum. These do transform excess voltage and current into heat.
The typical dc dynamo or even three phase car generators need some of the power to produce a magnetic field wherein windings rotate. Rotating windings in a magnetic field produce voltage and current. So in a case when the field is generated by electric power you can modulate the power that goes into the field and so you can limit the voltage that is generated by the dynamo or alternator. This type of generator needs copper windings for the field plus windings where the power output comes from.
Now looking at permanent magnet alternators, you get the field from the magnets which you cannot regulate. So the higher the speeds of the magnet rotors the higher the voltage goes. In long passed times the excessive voltage was sunk to earth by the Zener and went up in heat.
The modern type of regulator for these permanent magnet generators will most likely apply the pulse width modulation PWM electronics. An AC alternator, single or three phase, no matter, outputs a sine wave form AC voltage. Depending on the speed of the rotor, the voltage may reach 20, 30, 40 V , not suitable for your 12 V battery. So the PWM just cuts each sine wave at the point of 14 V along the curve. It does not sink the rest of the voltage into earth, just cuts it. There is certainly some power loss into heat as from any semiconductor apparatus, but no way all of the excess current gets lost in heat. When you look at the regulator that I ordered last night, it can output 35 amps at 14 V . So that would be almost 500 W , you could use that for cooking if all of the power was turned to heat. But in reality the component is only 90x85x28 mm large, so one can guess what amount of power will be lost in operation. Anyway, 500 W is only 3/4 of one hp and we´d be happy to have maybe 150 to 200 W - just one quarter of 1 hp.
Yes, this kind of regulation seems to be undersophisticated but then you get an alternator which has no brushes, no collectors, no flying windings. It is even suitable for in- oil operation like in bevel Ducatis. Once the motor spins the alternator produces power without a battery. But then I guess a battery will be easier on the regulator for cushioning voltage spikes possibly, I don´t know. Those China regulators should be allright with 30 or 40 V at times - anyway, cheap enough to have some on stock.

Vic
Rectifier 14.5 V 35 A

Honda three phase alterator
Honda alternator brushless
 

JustPlainBill0

Website User
Non-VOC Member
My China spindle motor arrived yesterday, so I loaded it up in the drill press and got some voltage readings, then did trial fitting on the Rapide. Along the way, I shot some quick and dirty video and posted the result on YouTube:

I've had time to reflect on the experience and in general think that Oexing (Vic) is closer to a respectable home made generator than I am. My (intuitive) sense is the spindle motor just isn't robust enough to handle the load from the driven sprocket over a long period of use. The added bearing Vic intends to mount on a brushless motor will be of great value for keeping the generator alive. (If the bearing were mounted outboard of the sprocket, on a steel plate between the primary cover T5/3 and dynamo cover ET63 , it would be ideal.)
Furthermore, the low voltage produced by the spindle motor at 2800 rpm with a 55 watt load makes me wonder if it will keep up with demand at normal road speeds. I've ordered a power analyzer https://tinyurl.com/14-Watt-Meter (I didn't even know they existed) to learn how many volts, amps and watts the spindle motor does output. Again, Vic's choice of a motor making it's power at lower RPM seems more practical.

That said, I will probably continue with the spindle motor experiment until Vic succeeds in his efforts and I can buy one from him, or I buy an Alton. :D

I think the mount and collet will be useful for cobbling something together when you don't have years of experience as a machinist. I will not do anything irreversable to my engine block, so the alternative is to try to adapt the mount to fit with longer studs for the dynamo clamp ET176. What I found today is that the Miller dynamo and spindle motor shafts are on nearly the exact same level (height) when in their respective mounts, facing nose to nose.

DSCN8344A.jpg

That should make fitment easier. It also shows that an outboard mounted bearing is also feasible for the spindle motor.
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
In the 70 s, I did a quick Bodge, Cut a Dynamo body in half, Fitted 2 drive ends and put a V pulley on the end.
This Jack Shaft has a V belt to run an Alternator from an old British Mini car, Built in regulator, More Power than I will ever need !, Does not over charge a 4 amp cheap battery, 12 v.
IT'S STILL ON THERE :) .
For my new Bike, I have a Walkernator, Ready to fit, Very well made, Much neater than my effort, Better belt type. Cheers Bill.
 

Attachments

timetraveller

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
A comment on any bearings used as 'outriggers' to take some of the strain on built in bearing in motors. With the Walkernators I use heavy duty 20mm I.D. bearing at each end of the dynamo replacement and have found that there is so much 'hammer' at the drive end due to the Vincent design that the drive side bearing can wear well before the other one. This has happened on bikes with 30,000 to 50,000 miles of use. The solution is that all the later models use a tube between the two bearing inners which is clamped tightly between the two inners. This ensures that both bearing inners rotate together. Thanks are due to father and son Appleton for this solution to the problem.
 

Latest Forum Posts

Latest Forum Threads

Top