• Welcome to the website of the Vincent H.R.D. Owners Club.

    Should you have any questions relating to the Vincent H.R.D. Owners Club, or Vincent H.R.D. motorcycles in general, please contact Graham Smith, Hon. Editor and Webmaster by calling 07977 001 025 or please CLICK HERE.

    You are unrecognised, and therefore, only have VERY restricted access to the many features of this website.

    If you have previously registered to use this forum, you should log in now. CLICK HERE.

    If you have never registered to use this website before, please CLICK HERE.

PD: Primary Drive Make your own Generator


oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Great discussions again, so I came to some more ideas : Using the dynamo for venting the primary case cannot be a serious proposition, so instead I chose to drill from there into the gearbox dip stick adapter, not a long way to do. So I expect to get any air out the gearbox dip stick cap and no oil leaks from there. Also no risk for washing or rain water to get into there. Some caps are vented some not so, at least in my old stock. So I did some Dremel grooving the thread for easier air venting, no hole on top.
As to dynamos, I do not like the Alton gearbox solution for offsetting the rotor drive. You have to care for lubrication in there . Instead I found some permanent magnet dc and three phase ac motors at small size so they can be fitted in this place after some minor milling the engine case for concentric motors with 68 mm o.d. . I will have a big magneto for ignition so all generated current will go into lighting only.
The dynamos - ahh, dc/ac motors got new longer front plates for twin sealed ball bearings on 8mm shafts for reinforcing this place. Sealing will be an o-ring machined in the motor front plate, no silicone or some such.
I did some power tests today with an electric hand drill and got these readings, revs corrected to crankshaft speeds, 1.25 lower than the dynamo sprocket:

The round dc perm mag. motor 68 mm o.d. performance was :
bulb 6 V 35 W : 6V at 1260 rpm
" 12 V 45 W 13.5 V at 2040 rpm
" quartz 12 V 60 W 12.6 V at 2020 rpm
" quartz 12 V 100 W 10.6 V at 1950 rpm
I could not get higher revs and voltage with the 100 W quartz because the hand drill did not pull it . So I guess at 2300 rpm I will get min. 12 100 W , but don´t really need that.

The square three phase ac motor and its three phase rectifier had these numbers:
6 V 35 W bulb 6V at 1160 rpm
12 V 35 W bulb 14 V at 2070 rpm
12 V 45 W bulb 13 V at 2030 rpm
12 V 60 W quartz 12.4 V at 2030 rpm
12 V 100 W quartz 11,4 V at 1950 rpm
again, slowed down by the drill at 100 Watt load.
So both motors are quite close in performance and show a very smooth pull with 8 or 9 poles. I do not have numbers to compare with the Alton but I believe they will satisfy me completely, no more night driving for me anyway. I got the motors from Aliexpress at € 40.- to 60.- each.

Vic
P1060966.JPG

P1060970.JPG

P1060981.JPG

P1060950.JPG

P1060953.JPG

P1060962.JPG

P1060956.JPG

P1060958.JPG
 

Bill Cannon

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Great discussions again, so I came to some more ideas : Using the dynamo for venting the primary case cannot be a serious proposition, so instead I chose to drill from there into the gearbox dip stick adapter, not a long way to do. So I expect to get any air out the gearbox dip stick cap and no oil leaks from there. Also no risk for washing or rain water to get into there. Some caps are vented some not so, at least in my old stock. So I did some Dremel grooving the thread for easier air venting, no hole on top.
As to dynamos, I do not like the Alton gearbox solution for offsetting the rotor drive. You have to care for lubrication in there . Instead I found some permanent magnet dc and three phase ac motors at small size so they can be fitted in this place after some minor milling the engine case for concentric motors with 68 mm o.d. . I will have a big magneto for ignition so all generated current will go into lighting only.
The dynamos - ahh, dc/ac motors got new longer front plates for twin sealed ball bearings on 8mm shafts for reinforcing this place. Sealing will be an o-ring machined in the motor front plate, no silicone or some such.
I did some power tests today with an electric hand drill and got these readings, revs corrected to crankshaft speeds, 1.25 lower than the dynamo sprocket:

The round dc perm mag. motor 68 mm o.d. performance was :
bulb 6 V 35 W : 6V at 1260 rpm
" 12 V 45 W 13.5 V at 2040 rpm
" quartz 12 V 60 W 12.6 V at 2020 rpm
" quartz 12 V 100 W 10.6 V at 1950 rpm
I could not get higher revs and voltage with the 100 W quartz because the hand drill did not pull it . So I guess at 2300 rpm I will get min. 12 100 W , but don´t really need that.

The square three phase ac motor and its three phase rectifier had these numbers:
6 V 35 W bulb 6V at 1160 rpm
12 V 35 W bulb 14 V at 2070 rpm
12 V 45 W bulb 13 V at 2030 rpm
12 V 60 W quartz 12.4 V at 2030 rpm
12 V 100 W quartz 11,4 V at 1950 rpm
again, slowed down by the drill at 100 Watt load.
So both motors are quite close in performance and show a very smooth pull with 8 or 9 poles. I do not have numbers to compare with the Alton but I believe they will satisfy me completely, no more night driving for me anyway. I got the motors from Aliexpress at € 40.- to 60.- each.

Vic
View attachment 27259

View attachment 27260

View attachment 27261

View attachment 27262

View attachment 27263

View attachment 27264

View attachment 27265

View attachment 27266
Hi Vic,

Do you have reference numbers for these motors or links to them please?

Cheers Bill
 

JustPlainBill0

Website User
Non-VOC Member
After seeing Oexing's brilliant post and photos, but not being a machinist, I searched eBay for a suitable substitute motor/generator and found a good variety of "spindle motors" with various DC voltage and watt ratings. I picked this one: which is 52 mm diameter, rated at 200 watts @ 12000 RPM (less at lower RPM), comes with a ER16 collet chuck and a nifty bracket (my Rapide engine case has the removable generator mount). According to tracking info, the motor is on it's way; passing through Greenwood Indiana today.

To convert the power to 12 VDC (actually,13.8 for charging the battery) I plan to use a step up/step down power converter such as this one:
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hi Bill,
there are a number of suitable DC motors, the MY / ZY 6812 are brush types, nicely made, all 68mm diameter. So you´d have to do a bit of milling the engine case like in my photo above. But then you can get replacements any time. I liked the brushless system so the square types could do, after a bit of a turning action in the lathe you could shroud them with a tubular sleeve for a more traditional look.
Aliexpress has a wide selection of motors but honestly I don´t always believe descriptions so first study all features for getting an idea. At least I did my tests and maybe get some more motors for testing. The spindle motors might be suitable , better test them for performance at engine speeds. I ´d think they will not feed much current at our speeds. The more powerful and more expensive motors may have bigger shafts and bearings, cannot tell yet, so I fabricated new end caps for two ball bearings for ease of mind.
So the Altons no longer have gears for upping the revs of the motor ? In this case I´d believe their power dropped a bit to what sort of wattage ? I still could not find numbers about this matter - but then they fit without any mods to the engine.
Anyway, there are a few links below for browsing Aliexpress - or Ebay if you like.

Vic
P.S. the last type is the one in my photo I think.



MY 6812 DC Motor
Brushless 200 W
Brushless 150 W
Brushless 210 W
Brushless 188 W
 

JustPlainBill0

Website User
Non-VOC Member
What I noticed in my search, is that when they provided info on RPM and voltage for DC motors, the values were like this: "Speed :3000-12000RPM (12v-3000rpm,24V-6000rpm,36V-9000rpm .48V-12000rpm)" which suggests that when using such a motor as a generator, it would produce about 1 VDC per 250 RPM. And, since the generator is being over-driven by the engine (+25%), it looks like at 60 mph (2750 engine RPM/3450 generator RPM) in 4th gear, the generator should be putting out 14 volts. Luckily, in Nevada, it isn't difficult to average 60 mile per hour on a ride (lots of open space here).
 

Bill Cannon

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
These generators seem interesting and amazingly powerful fot there size.
In my application I am driving it by a vee belt and I wonder if they will stand up to the side loading.
Also many of the AC generators seem to have maximum rating at 3 to 4000rpm. Mine is overdriven by about 2:1 so could spin at up to 12000rpm, so I wonder if that would destroy them.
With the DC motors and the step up/down converter, i wonder if the voltage regulation would be good enough especially for a Lithium battery which I am using.
Good luck, it will be interesting to see both of your progress.
Cheers
Bill
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
So do any of these devices provide a possibility of a through drive to magnetic pickups? and would one be found where half engine speed would produce enough current? If so the ultimate goal of nothing in the dynamo position to stuff primary chains would be achievable and we could run both electrical power and electronic ignition from the mag position.
And perhaps? make a path for improved electric start from the dynamo position....
 

JustPlainBill0

Website User
Non-VOC Member
So do any of these devices provide a possibility of a through drive to magnetic pickups? and would one be found where half engine speed would produce enough current? If so the ultimate goal of nothing in the dynamo position to stuff primary chains would be achievable and we could run both electrical power and electronic ignition from the mag position.
And perhaps? make a path for improved electric start from the dynamo position....
Another interesting possibility would be to use the generator as a starter motor in its' present location. Not a new concept and it has been done in non-motorcycle applications (some hybrid cars). Seems to be a complicated procedure...well above my pay-grade.

As for running the ignition off the back of a generator in the magneto location, this example doesn't appear to make enough power to charge a battery, but is a small 3 phase brushless motor/generator with shafts at both ends and a no load speed (12 VDC) of 2800 RPM: https://tinyurl.com/y3jzhcpb The specs say it's no load current is 0.5 Amps (6 watts). Do a search for "double shaft" motors and you'll find better examples -

Bill
 

bmetcalf

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Didn’t Laverda Twins and MV 600s have starter/dynamos? Maybe also ‘70’s MV 750s and larger?
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Laverda twins had a dynamo 12 V 150 W at the front of the engine, belt drive. The extra small motor starter was via a sprag clutch drive and chain plus planetary gear in the starter motor behind the cylinders, don´t know about MVs.

All brushless motors have no windings in the rotor, just permanent magnets there. So I cannot see a problem with high revs, quite unlike the old dynamos and their brushes on collectors. There you can expect to find burnt soldered contacts and flung out tin solder when something broke in the windings. The armature really is the weak point in a dynamo, the field coils rarely fail.
I honestly got my wattage numbers from my own tests and loaded the motors by hooking up a few bulbs, quartz too and noted the voltage on a digi voltmeter. That is why I wrote, don´t trust any numbers in ads but do your own tests and see what that shows. I just ordered another brushless from Aliexpress, said to be a 400 W type, 48 V. Length is no problem on the Vincent, but I want to keep the 68 mm diameter. So in a few weeks I can tell if that big motor might be suitable. It has a massive 14 mm shaft, so a decent ball bearing to go with it I guess.
Hmmm, don´t see an easy way to have a starter/dynamo combo at this place. You´d need some gear reduction for the starter to make it over TDC but then you don´t get the speeds when asking for the generator function. The starter/dynamo combos I know from BMW Isetta 250 and 700 cc flat twin car or some scooters from Zündapp had veeery big diameter armatures and 12 batteries plus direct drive sitting on the crankshafts.
What I noticed in my tests, you get high voltage at very moderate revs with no load but when loaded this goes down a lot. So only an actual load test will be helpful.
Bill, your Lithium battery is a LiFePo4 type - hopefully ?? Not the explosives as in notebooks ?? I would not expect to get problems with electronic step-down converters then, batteries should not be as critical as tablets or the like and I believe truck drivers will have lots of them for operating all sorts of electronic devices on these.
Below another brushless on back order from Ali today, possibly a bit too big, will see.

Vic
48 V 400 W brushless
 

JustPlainBill0

Website User
Non-VOC Member
After thinking a starter/generator over, I came to a similar conclusion Vic. Maybe when there's a hybrid Vincent.

It seems to me that the test of a generator is whether it makes enough power to keep the battery charged with whatever lights, ignition, etc. are being used. And therefore, a proper test would include a converter, battery and maybe a quartz H4 light bulb to approximate the electrical load. My problem in that regard, is that the highest speed my (floor) drill press can achieve (2850 RPM) is lower than the speed at which my generator reaches 12V (3000 RPM) and it's lower than the generator RPM expected when on the road. I'm not sure how big a problem that will be, since when the output voltage reaches 10 VDC, the converter will boost it to 13.8 VDC. Maybe if I knew anything about electricity...

Another concern: except for measuring battery voltage at the start of the test and at the end of the test, I don't know how to determine whether the generator was able to maintain the charge or not. I suppose putting an amp meter between the generator and battery would be helpful too. Any other ideas?
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Well, when looking at your test findings I´d think your strategy on motor choice was not optimal. See my tests above, I get about 14 V at 2050 rpm crank speed. And this with motors of 24 V type at 3000 rpm in the descriptions. My thinking was you might arrive at 14 V with a nominal 24 V motor at lower speeds than with a proper 12 V type. So I am very curious to get the new 48 V motor in a few weeks for tests. I am expecting 14 V with it at even lower speeds.
My test setup had no converter included, just a three phase rectifier for the brushless as you cannot connect all phases to one single wire. You can drive a bulb with one phase of course, AC power in that case. And from this you can guess what power to expect with all phases but then my tests appear good enough for me to have an idea about performance on the bike, a connected battery will most likely not have a bad effect at all. From above a certain motor speed at 14 V you´d need a step-DOWN converter to limit the system to max. 14 V when picking a 24 V or 48 V type. So really I cannot see a problem to keep the battery charged when having a stepdown converter in the setup.
The present Alton type has no longer any gears in it to get higher speeds for the rotor like in the older type - as far as I have learned. So in consequence they must have changed the diameter of the rotor to a smaller size to keep the radial offset of the shaft for simple installation, no machining required. Nobody here who could point me to performance numbers at various speeds with these ?
I only came to looking for alternatives because I just would not accept any noisy gear drive in Altons then - which did not prove to be very durable - or so I found in this forum somewhere. So to this day for lack of info about performance of the present Alton it seems to me a modification plus some minor machining for the China brushless types may be very worthwhile to do. At least all tests appear to be better than what I know about Altons.

Vic
 

JustPlainBill0

Website User
Non-VOC Member
You're probably right about my choice of motors, but it's easily corrected. I do like the brushless motors you're testing/considering. But one of my reasons for choosing a 12K RPM motor was that there was no chance of exceeding the maximum speed it's rated for on the Vincent. I don't know what happens to a motor rated for 3000 RPM when you turn it 7500 RPM, but it can't be good.

The voltage converter I have in hand, is a step up/step down unit and converts 10-32 VDC to 13.8 VDC. I got it when I was looking at 60 watt motors; it's only rated for 4 amps and all these China motors we're discussing make 5 or more amps.
 

Dave61

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
So do any of these devices provide a possibility of a through drive to magnetic pickups? and would one be found where half engine speed would produce enough current? If so the ultimate goal of nothing in the dynamo position to stuff primary chains would be achievable and we could run both electrical power and electronic ignition from the mag position.
And perhaps? make a path for improved electric start from the dynamo position....
Tim,
Didn`t Ernst Hegeler do exactly what you`re describing ? I think there were some concerns over whether the timing gears were strong enough to cope with driving a charging system.
Looked like a very neat set up but would want to be sitting down if I was asking for a price.
Cheers
Dave
 

JustPlainBill0

Website User
Non-VOC Member
Just one of those FYI posts. In anticipation of the arrival of my 12K spindle motor, I decided to test fit a Yamaha FJR1300 starter motor to my drill press/vise set up. It's a four brush, permanent magnet 12 VDC motor. It looked pretty good, so so out of curiosity, I hooked up a sealed beam headlight and a digital voltmeter:

FJR1300 STARTER (5).JPGFJR1300 STARTER (7).JPGFJR1300 STARTER (1).JPG

Running the drill press at top speed (2800 RPM) the starter motor barely managed to generate 2.6 VDC and make a faint glow in the headlight. Clearly not a candidate for generator use, though it is a perfectly functional starter.

This does not bode well for home testing the 12K spindle motor.
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Don´t confuse a nominal rating of, say, 3000 rpm and 12 V or 24 V at maybe 200 W with a speed limit . This is not the speed limit of the motor. The good old 6 V dynamo did 7500 at 6000 rpm crank speed - and that with brushes, collector and windings. So when putting a brushless motor at the same place, where´s the problem ?
I operate a three phase hf spindle motor on the lathe for a few grinding jobs when CBN hard turning is not suitable. That 48mm watercooled spindle has a nominal 2800 rpm speed at 50 Hz, 75 V. The inverter for it does 1000 Hz, so I can have around 60 000 rpm for small bores to grind. So 10 000 rpm is no big thing for these brushless motors, I guess.
Running a dynamo off the timing gears would not be a big load really, you get just 100 W smooth load at best, nothing compared to valve gear pulses. But the half time very low speed there is not great to generate some wattage. Why not keep the dynamo at its old place? The dynamo is really only the victim of the triplex chain, not the root of the problem. Most forumites will know my thinking of what causes the primary troubles and it is not the little dynamo at 60 W . There is only some higher load on the dynamo drive and motor when blipping the throttle and the inertia of the rotor is some factor. I could put the Miller armature on scales and compare it with the brushless permanent magnet rotor weight, my guess , the magnet is less weight, so a bonus for the brushless.

Vic
 

timetraveller

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Gentlemen, I have been hovering over this thread for some time and in the back of my brain I have some queries. These result from when I was a school boy and learning about Fleming's left hand and right hand rules. My memory, which is very vague on this, is that there had to be some phase difference between the poles if one wanted to use a system as a motor or a generator. Can one of you electrical pundits refresh the memories of those of us of a certain age as to whether this applies to what is being attempted here and if not, why not? Thank you in advance. :confused:
 

JustPlainBill0

Website User
Non-VOC Member
Can't help you timetraveller - my knowledge of electrical theory is limited to "don't put a fork in the power receptacle at home or you'll frizzy your hair". My practical knowledge is to throw money at an electrical problem until it's fixed. That said, if there's a way to avoid throwing $650 at an Alton, I'd like to pursue it.

Meanwhile, back to the issue of turning a motor rated for 3000 RPM some higher amount. My concern was not aimed at the mechanical aspect, but since voltage increases as motor speed increases, wouldn't there be a risk of frying the battery, lights, ignition, etc. when those components are hit with significantly higher voltage?
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
For limiting the voltage in a generator system you have a constant voltage device. The old dynamo had a relay type non electronic voltage and current limiter . Without it you could get way above 6 V from the dynamo, the higher the speed, the higher the voltage. With state of art electronics I guess these electronic CV units use PWM to feed the 13.8 V for battery charging and lights.
A starter motor is no good for a job of dynamo: It has a very low number of windings, but very massive wires for hundreds of amps when hitting the start knob. For higher voltage like 12 or 24 V you´d like to have many windings in the rotor. But these can be finer wires as current will be only 10 to 20 A . Basically many types of electric motors can be run as a motor and a dynamo as well. A big difference is only obvious when looking at an engine starter motor: In this very specialised application you will find extremely heavy wiring for hundreds of amps but only for one minute or two runs, any more and you will burn out the motor.

Vic
 

Latest Forum Posts

Latest Forum Threads

Top