H: Hubs, Wheels and Tyres FRONT BRAKE IDENTIFICATION PLEASE

[DucATIRadeon]

"Magnesium alloy components do not age well, becoming brittle with age,mag brake plates are best used on the shelf of the garage, when you really need them, they are quite likely to shatter under load."

sounds like a copy-paste from KTB?

apart from the materials, [of which I am familiar about the magnesium, especially the Campagnolo and Speedline wheels used on various Italian bikes notorious for wheel rims cracking while riding. had a mate's 900SSD wheel hub spin at a traffic light sprint whilst the rim was standing stil, all spokes broken! that was worth changing underwear...] the point is that these brakes can be improved without simply swapping them out for alternatives; that doesn't improve the original that's comparing apples and pears.
sure the 4LS will outbrake a 2LS will outbrake a double SLS. that is, if all is set correctly, with the same amount of effort.

then again, if my dads RE500 bullet with 2LS 7" drum brake can (b)lock the front wheel with 2 fingers, surely a double SLS in the Vin should achieve similar results? my Ducati 175 with 180mm double SLS grimeca can (b)lock the wheel too with minimal pull, and that's very similar in size to the 7" on the Vin!
difference with my Bullet 500 and former 2LS is the brake plate was flexing, doesn't matter what someone changes nothing will improve, ie the basis isn't good. changed to disc (for safety reasons).
look at proper Italian and jap brake plates (180/200/230/250mm Grimeca/Fontana/Oldani/Suzuki drums), they're pretty stiff and solid on the front axle. had Vin managed that with its wheel config/design it probably would've been a good stopper.

no intended harm/insinuation, just speaking out loud.

note: the 8" 4LS is a really nice piece of kit with matching cosmetic looks, and plug-n-play.

 

[oexing]

Difference about braking and wheel locking is the weight of the bike. Don´t look at a 175cc Italian bike and compare to a 200kg plus Vincent and its brakes.
Münch Mammut rear wheels from Elektron or mag Fontanas are well known for aging. Got one 250mm Fontana with cracked spoke holes, from accident or single cross spoke pattern - an absolute no-go with mag hubs or drums. The spokes have to be under a flat tangential angle on the hub so cast material between holes is under compression and not in stress loads for breaking the hub.

Vic

 

[Cyborg]

I've got these on by Rap: cast-in scoops, word has it they're from "Electron" some aluminium/magnesium alloy and fitted to Lightning bikes?
didn't brake wel, I suppose less bad than the standard bikes as the shoe pivots have little to no support in the brake plates and bend, resulting from the shoes pushing (or pulling) on them offset from the brake plate hence bending moment.

I made new pivots with mush larger base and 0-on-0 tolerance fit, turn the shoes in the lathe to the drum diameter and have direct improvement on the braking!! still with old/thin shoes and lining almost gone, but it demonstrates the point.
View attachment 61033

Any original Lightning brakes that I have seen do not have cast in scoops. Slater made some aluminum plates with cast in scoops, but based on some of the comments posted elsewhere on this site, they weren’t all that great.

 

[A Nut]

When I first joined the VOC back in 1968 there was a Vincent dealer named Roger Slater based in Bromsgrove, Worcestershire that made these racing plates in aluminium with cast in air scoops rather than the genuine Lightning ones which were magnesium alloy with bolted on air scoops. The ones in the photo look remarkably like the Slater ones that I have on my Comet. As purchased they didn't work very well as the pivots weren't drilled very accurately but with some careful re drilling they are now quite a good brake. I did at one point many years ago purchase some genuine ones but they were so corroded and cracked that I threw them away. (Yes, honestly!)
Brian

 

[kerry]

My Brake drums, looking today they are appearing to be in excellent condition, 7" with screw on scoops.
Looking at an old photo of Frank Griffon on this bike approx 25 years ago it looks like he had these same brakes fitted then
I am not impressed with them performance wise so I will possibly use the fabric/brass/type off my Shadow which is having the German 8" TLS
Kerry.

 

[Cyborg]

The flexi shoes hurt Lightning brake plates, too, so try stiffer shoes.

Once you deal with the flexi shoes…. next on the list is the way the balance beam is supported. I have heat treated aluminum brake plates with Neal’s shoes. Because this is a Lightning replica (which defies logic) it has the shortened front mudguard so no front stay is required. Without the front stay, when the front brake is applied, you can see that the upper front portion of the mudguard acts like a rudder because the FF32 girdraulic bridge plate flexes.

 

[Simon Dinsdale]

Once you deal with the flexi shoes…. next on the list is the way the balance beam is supported. I have heat treated aluminum brake plates with Neal’s shoes. Because this is a Lightning replica (which defies logic) it has the shortened front mudguard so no front stay is required. Without the front stay, when the front brake is applied, you can see that the upper front portion of the mudguard acts like a rudder because the FF32 girdraulic bridge plate flexes.

A few years ago my brother in law got a few FF32 bridge plates laser cut out in steel rather than aluminium and it solved the flexing problem on my Shadow.
On my Rapide I fitted an outrigger plate 30 years ago as per Know thy Beast (think that’s where its from) and that achieved the same but looks a bit ugly so will be fitting my last steel bridge plate at some time.

 

[LoneStar]

I see the Spares Company sells an alloy FF32 that is 1/4" thick, presumably for the same reason one would switch to steel: greater rigidity. Has anyone tried one?

 

[DucATIRadeon]

Difference about braking and wheel locking is the weight of the bike. Don´t look at a 175cc Italian bike and compare to a 200kg plus Vincent and its brakes.
Münch Mammut rear wheels from Elektron or mag Fontanas are well known for aging. Got one 250mm Fontana with cracked spoke holes, from accident or single cross spoke pattern - an absolute no-go with mag hubs or drums. The spokes have to be under a flat tangential angle on the hub so cast material between holes is under compression and not in stress loads for breaking the hub.

Vic

[defence mode]
perhaps not so well understood explanation, but did you get the point?

I don't know a lot (well pretty sure nothing compared to you lot) about these bikes and models and specific features, too young for that.
as said "word has it" not my my words.

drum material was not the important part, for all I care they're made of cheese, its the basics that are being highlighted.
[/defence mode]
I'll get my coat and off to work.

 

[A Nut]

The brake plates with cast in scoops are Roger Slater ones. I have a pair on my Comet and they are much better than the standard steel ones.
Brian