Comet Oil Use

davidd

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Trev,

Richardson says that on a single the slot in the breather spindle should face down.

I am confused.

Martyn

I was interested in Trevor's reply because I had heard about this recently, namely, point the slot downward for drainage. However, the flow of oil in the timing chest can be upward. If your timing cover gasket fails on the top portion of the timing cover oil will spurt out of it as if it were connected to the pump. I would also note that my breather spindles have always pointed forward. I checked in the Instruction Sheets and this is the recommended position. If the "B" tooth is used for timing, it is theoretically positioned so that the a diametrical line drawn through the "B" tooth will be parallel with the flat on the port. Of course, this means that the breather spindle must be positioned correctly so that when you line up the "B's" on the breather and idler gears that it means something. That position is described in the Instruction Sheets is as follows: "To give the correct timing as described, the slot in the breather valve spindle ET159 must point forward directly in line with the top of the magneto stud."

So, there you have it. Point it up, forward or down. As we know, only two of these answers can be absolutely correct, so please do not choose the wrong one!

David
 

chankly bore

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Well, Twin forward, Single down, but in neither case can oil theoretically collect to the depth, so to speak, of the spindle bore. I can only assume that the designer had specific avoidance of oil flow in mind as he made this decision. What we need now is a Perspex timing cover and some high-speed photography. Any volunteers? Also note that the breather pinion is common to both engines; could the reason merely be the egregious exigencies of economy?
 

Martyn Goodwin

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Yesterday I went for a test ride after installing a "original" timed breather AND removing all the other attempts I had made at breathers.

Before I installed the timed breather pinion I modified it as recommended by PEI in MPH 252 [thanks for that tip, David]. I also modified a spare banjo I had to improve the flow rate through it. Using kneadable epoxy I fitted a short length of 1/2" OD copper pipe over it and once all was set I then drilled out the outlet tube of the banjo. opening it up by a good 50%. I attached a length of 1/2" bore hose to the banjo, running it up under the seat then down into a catch can (actually an empty clear plastic drink bottle).

For the record, the slot in the breather spindle is facing DOWN in my motor; Using a series if files I opened up the slot in the breather bush to a full 3/8" wide , made sure it had a knife edge in both edges then blended the two edges of the flat into the circular portion with a generous radius, finally I fired up my bench polisher and brought the breather bush to a mirror finish. I installed the breather pinion assembly using a timing disk and a length of hose connected to the breather outlet (for me to blow through) so I could determine exactly where the breather was opening and closing - I ignored the marks on the pinion itself. I set the breather timing as follows: Opens at 22 degrees ATDC and closes at 3 degrees BBDC.

I started the motor and let it idle for 10 minutes before I set off - all that I observed in the catch can at this time was a bit of condensation on its inside walls.

After a 70 mile run at varying speeds of up to 72 MPH, that also included some long stops waiting at traffic lights with the motor idling , and at least two (intentional) motor stops then restarts I returned home and checked the catch can. It contained no more than 20cc of milky looking oil. On checking the oil tank, the level seemed to be the same as it was before I set out. This was amazing , as prior to this, a run of this length would have needed me to add more than a 1/2 pint of oil to restore the level in the oil tank.

This morning the oil in the catch can was still milky so I assume it is an emulsion of oil and engine condensate, this is important to note for it means that the oil from the catch can is contaminated with god knows what should NOT be returned to the oil tank.

Those of you who have followed this thread may well wonder why I bothered with an alternative breather. When I got my Comet a prior owner had made a number of "changes" to it, in part I think, in an attempt to bring it up to "D" specifications. One rear brake had been removed, both wheels had been rebuilt - the front with a 19" rim and the rear with a 18" rim, all parts of the timed breather had been removed, the magneto had been removed, the original generator had been removed, and replaced with a strange unit that incorporated a set of points allowing a Kettering ignition to be bodged up, , an "elephant trunk" style of breather had been installed behind the front cowl using the opening where the magneto should have been - the list just goes on and on. Over my 2 years of ownership I have been working on getting all back as it should have been though I have left the wheels alone as they allow me to use modern tires - (Michelin Pilot Active tires are great!).

Sorting the breathing was about the last item on my list of things to resolve. To all who have persevered with me on this journey, providing guidance, comment and assistance, I thank you.

Martyn
 

vibrac

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the standard set up is ok for standard bikes in good condition got one on my road comet
have to say though 20cc is about the amount I had in the obligatory 500cc catch tank on the 1275 racer after an entire season using in line PCV valves
(As it was 'R' I put it in my Scott :)
 

davidd

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Martyn,

Very Nice! I am glad that you efforts were rewarded. It is also nice to know that in all probability your blow-by is at a minimum. I think your comments on the contents of the catch can are also good. The wayward oil contains a small percentage of fuel and water which makes its banishment worthwhile.

I am still curious about the placement of the spindle slot. If I knew it was different on a Comet I certainly had forgotten. I checked a spare engine for the Grey Flash and it was face down. I check the Flash itself and it was not face down but it was pointing toward the rear axle. It was as far down as it could be and still remain behind the shroud. I don't believe it had spun because I used this engine for years and never had an issue. Because I work on mostly non-stock motors, I never use the markings. So if the spindle had moved I would have re-timed it without knowing. I ran this engine until June of 2009 with the stock breather and I only remember emptying it at the annual check. I stopped using the stock breather because on the next engine I decided to leave the breather pinion out and use the Ducati breather. Because you have a blank-off plate on the generator hole anyway, it is simple to mount a breather there. I do not have a catch tank on the racer as nothing has ever ventured out.

David
 

Martyn Goodwin

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Martyn,

Very Nice! I am glad that you efforts were rewarded. It is also nice to know that in all probability your blow-by is at a minimum.
David

Oh how one can be deceived by these beasts! Over the last 5 days I took part in a non-Vincent rally along with at least 6 other Vincents in attendance. Having installed a regular timed breather recently my oil consumption was negligible with not a trace of a leak anywhere and almost no oil out of the breather - so nice to come out in the morning to an oil tight, clean ground bike. What as observed, however, was that when the motor was under load a significant and constant stream of white to light grey vapour was being emitted from the breather outlet.

I should add that over the 5 days I covered just over 1,100 miles at an overall average speed of 52 mph (with a once off GPS max of 77 mph). I also noticed a slight lack (loss) of power on long hills.

Today I decided I must investigate so strip and pulled the head and barrel only to find that at some point the front of the piston had "nipped up" resulting in the metal between the top of the piston and the first compression ring having been lost over about a 5 degree arc of the piston. The top ring was jammed in its slot as was the second compression ring. And there are two parallel score marks in the liner - quite severe - I am definitely up for a new piston and quite likely a new liner as well.

Bugger. But better found now in my workshop than stuck out on the road somewhere!

At least I have something to keep me occupied till the next planned trip (again of around 1,000 miles) next month.

Martyn
 

redbloke1956

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Non-VOC Member
Oh how one can be deceived by these beasts! Over the last 5 days I took part in a non-Vincent rally along with at least 6 other Vincents in attendance. Having installed a regular timed breather recently my oil consumption was negligible with not a trace of a leak anywhere and almost no oil out of the breather - so nice to come out in the morning to an oil tight, clean ground bike. What as observed, however, was that when the motor was under load a significant and constant stream of white to light grey vapour was being emitted from the breather outlet.

I should add that over the 5 days I covered just over 1,100 miles at an overall average speed of 52 mph (with a once off GPS max of 77 mph). I also noticed a slight lack (loss) of power on long hills.

Today I decided I must investigate so strip and pulled the head and barrel only to find that at some point the front of the piston had "nipped up" resulting in the metal between the top of the piston and the first compression ring having been lost over about a 5 degree arc of the piston. The top ring was jammed in its slot as was the second compression ring. And there are two parallel score marks in the liner - quite severe - I am definitely up for a new piston and quite likely a new liner as well.

Bugger. But better found now in my workshop than stuck out on the road somewhere!

At least I have something to keep me occupied till the next planned trip (again of around 1,000 miles) next month.

Martyn
Hi Martyn, How many miles did you do before you gave it a bit of stick? Kevin
 

BigEd

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Dear Martyn,
Condolences on the burnt piston. You really have been tenacious in sorting out this Comet. You must have the patience of a saint.
Any idea what may have caused it? e.g. Weak mixture, too much advance, etc. What make of piston was it?

............. pulled the head and barrel only to find that at some point the front of the piston had "nipped up" resulting in the metal between the top of the piston and the first compression ring having been lost over about a 5 degree arc of the piston. The top ring was jammed in its slot as was the second compression ring. And there are two parallel score marks in the liner ...............

At least I have something to keep me occupied till the next planned trip (again of around 1,000 miles) next month.

Martyn
 
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