Burman 4th Gear Selector Meltdown

brian gains

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so, replacement gear cam shaft outer bush + 3 thou' length and second time I went to engage 4th nothing there. final option is to have shim made up for between output gear and bearing. I read on the Aerial site this should between 0.016 - 0.031" at 0.0245" my set up should be within tolerance but shall shim it to smallest end play.
any comments or suggestions gratefully received even for what the most acceptable replacement box should be!!
 

brian gains

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wait a minute, scrub that can't edit my last post for some reason.
The end play of the main shaft doesn't influence my problem, looking back at this thread it's the engagement of the dogs on final drive so that's why it needs to be brought further inboard. Is the thickness of this spacer / thrust washer just governed by the fact it should not foul anything else. 1mm - 1.2mm have been suggested , does anyone have any first hand knowledge of which thickness works?
 

Bill Thomas

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Thinking back to my problem, When I lost top, Because the circlip and bearing shifted out.
Could you shim between circlip and bearing ?.
Cheers Bill.
 

tatty500

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Brian,
You appear to have eliminated all the reasons why the double gear is being incorrectly positioned in top gear...unyet engagement is still intermittent. (What do the dog wear patterns look like on the double gear? Compare the 3rd gear end with top.)

So, this only leaves the possibility that the output gear and bearing are moving in the shell so that some of the time it is out of reach. To get back to having say 2.5mm dog overlap the spacer would need to be this thick (or more). This is clearly at odds with 1mm spacers being sometimes used.

Try putting just the cam, selector and double gear in the casing, all in the 4th gear position....might have to take the load off the cam pawl spring........and see where everything is. Then try gently prying the gearbox sprocket away from the primary chaincase to see if the output gear moves in.

To fit a spacer it'll all have to come out, so why not have another look at the bearing positioning, 72mm o/d spacer and circlip. This all has to be a really tight fit lengthways.

Tatty
 

brian gains

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putting the shim one side or the other of the bearing doesn't seem to make any odds to me?
I thought that as the circlip was seated that all must be located appropriately, however the original 'oil seal' set up does seem a little basic to say the least, As the two spacer rings, one that had snapped and been replaced previously, and 'oil seal' may have compressed I shall look at again.
having previously dismissed yje idea that the bearing may have walked I have to concede that this needs to be inspected more thoroughly.
By this point the daunting task of wrestling the gearbox out has become straight forward, it's the g*d awful semi fluid grease (and expense) I hate dealing with. This may end up as a winter project as i only want to deal with once and for all. Classic case of "measure twice, cut once".
thanks for suggestions, very much appreciated.
 

Matty

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Hi Brian
I am surprised that you are having so much trouble.
It is quite a while ago I did my box but as Tatty says and I seem to remember I just put enough bits together to put it into 4th gear , then pushed everything into the worst case situation and with a felt tip was somehow able to mark the dogs to see how far they engaged in 4th gear.
With a shim behind the output gear, and the slop in the cam shaft mostly removed by moving the bush in a bit( and making sure the pins in the bronze selector were not worn much) I think I was able to get almost 4mm of overlap on the dogs in 4th gear with the output gear just missing the selector casting by a bit more than a mm
It may be a "grandmother sucking eggs situation" but is the indexing of the selector cam OK with respect to the positive stop mechanism ? and could it be that the markings for this alignment are incorrect.
Have you checked that the bush in the output gear has not moved in because this has also been known to stop the sliding dog from going in far enough.
I have never changed the pins in the bronze selector or the selector itself in my box except in 1957 when a gear tooth broke off and jammed between the gears wrecking most of the box.
I believe this was a manufacturing fault of the gear because it just broke off while riding in top gear and has been fine since I replaced the sliding gear and straightened out other parts when I was an apprentice electronics Engineer with a few practical and theoretical mechanical engineering qualifications !!
Good Luck
Matty
 

vibrac

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Would you guys like to reference what you are describing on this picture? I am sure it would help a lot of followers. Paint.net is free and its easy to add arrows
1569323750697.png
 

Matty

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Sorry Bill
This is not the gearbox the comet uses which is the BAP version and really only used by the 600 Panther (though there may be others I do not know about).
Please find attached picture of the Comet Box.
Matty
Gearbox.jpg
 

brian gains

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Matty; imagine my frustration, i use to have little knowledge of engine building and have thrown together numerous rebuilds over several decades with no issues. The more knowledge i get the more that seems to generate a fault.. grrrr!

Bill: yes quite right if any of this is to be of future benefit it would be useful to positively id parts. I’ll quote #’s from drawing supplied although as pointed out there are some differences from Comet installation but generally schematically the same.

So problem I had was without warning no 4th gear, stripped down and replaced 3658-52 gear change cam bush that has been shimmed out by PO, also selector fork pins 37939-52 although the signs of wear were negligible, also replaced output gear 3638-52 with a used item that appeared to have dogs in marginally better conditition. At this point I thought that all of latter may have been contributing to issue but having found that mainshaft output retaining nut 3089-33 was loose and oil seal garter setup 3636-52, 3635-52 was not firmly seated because the retaining circlip 3634-52 was not seated this was what i had thought was the culprit. I’d carried out a cursory inspection and was satisfied that the mainshaft bearing 3095-33 had not walked. Having reassembled all and satisfied that all gears engaged when rotating the rear wheel i thought all was well.

However, following approx’ 200 mls the issue manifested itself again, this time all i replaced was the outer bush 3659-52 to the gear selector camshaft 3736-52 and i had the bush made up 30 thou on internal flange length to negate end play that was in excess of 2 thou.

All gears selected on non running engine, within two shifts of shakedown run 4th had disappeared again.

Situation is i have dropped the box and am waiting for semi viscous fluid to drain, also for delivery of 52mm socket to loosen drive sprocket retaining nut 3089-33. Partly because i don’t want to over extend goodwill of friend who has lent me his 52mm socket and ratchet driver several times now.

Yes matty the indexing pawl was engaged and engaging, however oil seal garter setup 3636-52, 3635-52 was not seated because the retaining circlip 3634-52 was not seated, I don’t know if this occurred during dismantling or during operation.

Moving forward I intend to establish if the mainshft bearing 3095-33 has walked out, the actual engagement depth of dogs between 3642-52 and 3638-52 and if there are any cracks in the casing 3600-52 in the area of the bearing 3095-33 that I have missed as i have learnt this can occur.

Works actually contemplated are having spacer made up to place behind output gear 3638-52 to encourage better engagement of dogs and replacement for oil seal garter setup 3636-52, 3635-52 with a standard oil seal, at last inspection there was insufficient depth for Dragan off the shelf replacement which their site suggests maybe the case in some instances.
 
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