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General Chat (Vincent Related)
Rapide/ Black Shadow wanted.
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<blockquote data-quote="ilikevelos" data-source="post: 179347" data-attributes="member: 5728"><p>We are all custodians of these older machines and, at least in my view, have a responsibility to care for them so they can be enjoyed by a future generation.</p><p></p><p>No one has mentioned the word "provenance". It strikes me that matching numbers is one element of provenance. A vehicle is typically worth more when the provenance is known. Generally speaking a vehicle's provenance will be weak when the numbers don't match as the the various parts have not been together all its life. A bike that left the works without the numbers matching would be an exception and likely have an interesting story. On the other hand, a numbers matching engine UFM and RFM bike that has most components replaced has less "provenance" that a bike that has been completely kept together such as a 400 mile Shadow I know of. This concept is diluted in "vincent world" where bikes that can be ridden long distances with confidence are correctly valued more than those that have not turned a wheel in decades. I know I value matching numbers to some extent but that factor needs to be tempered by other factors.</p><p></p><p>I have an early '46 Ariel Red Hunter/Deluxe where the records show that the Deluxe was shipped to a dealer in the Northeast U.S. and the Red Hunter was shipped to the same dealer several months later. The story that came with the bike was that the original purchaser liked the Deluxe but wanted more engine performance and so the dealer swapped engines at his request. I have no direct proof that this story is correct but it makes sense and I like it. To me the story makes the non-matching numbers more acceptable. It is an aspect of provenance. On the other hand, I support trying to reassemble the original engine, UFM and RFM when the opportunity arises. Quite a while ago, I bought an Atlas where the owner had two Atlases where the original engine of each was in the other frame. Part of the deal was for me to swap engines and I now have a matching no. Atlas. </p><p></p><p>None of us would probably ride old bikes if it were just about the riding. I new bike works better with less hassle. Thus the vintage experience is valued by all. Provenance is part of that but the extent of its importance varies between different enthusiasts. </p><p></p><p>My thoughts. M</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ilikevelos, post: 179347, member: 5728"] We are all custodians of these older machines and, at least in my view, have a responsibility to care for them so they can be enjoyed by a future generation. No one has mentioned the word "provenance". It strikes me that matching numbers is one element of provenance. A vehicle is typically worth more when the provenance is known. Generally speaking a vehicle's provenance will be weak when the numbers don't match as the the various parts have not been together all its life. A bike that left the works without the numbers matching would be an exception and likely have an interesting story. On the other hand, a numbers matching engine UFM and RFM bike that has most components replaced has less "provenance" that a bike that has been completely kept together such as a 400 mile Shadow I know of. This concept is diluted in "vincent world" where bikes that can be ridden long distances with confidence are correctly valued more than those that have not turned a wheel in decades. I know I value matching numbers to some extent but that factor needs to be tempered by other factors. I have an early '46 Ariel Red Hunter/Deluxe where the records show that the Deluxe was shipped to a dealer in the Northeast U.S. and the Red Hunter was shipped to the same dealer several months later. The story that came with the bike was that the original purchaser liked the Deluxe but wanted more engine performance and so the dealer swapped engines at his request. I have no direct proof that this story is correct but it makes sense and I like it. To me the story makes the non-matching numbers more acceptable. It is an aspect of provenance. On the other hand, I support trying to reassemble the original engine, UFM and RFM when the opportunity arises. Quite a while ago, I bought an Atlas where the owner had two Atlases where the original engine of each was in the other frame. Part of the deal was for me to swap engines and I now have a matching no. Atlas. None of us would probably ride old bikes if it were just about the riding. I new bike works better with less hassle. Thus the vintage experience is valued by all. Provenance is part of that but the extent of its importance varies between different enthusiasts. My thoughts. M [/QUOTE]
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Rapide/ Black Shadow wanted.
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