Poor starting on new Amal and BTH Magneto

Magnetoman

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Wouldn't a dragster engine built for no compromise balls to the wall performance supercharged, with a huge compression ratio, need a super powerful coil/spark to run?
All of the power of an engine is produced by the burning of fuel, not by the size of the coil. As long as the coil supplies sufficient voltage to jump the plug gap at the high compression, it will spark, and as long as it supplies enough current to heat the gas molecules in the path of the spark to generate a shock wave of sufficient magnitude, the fuel will be ignited and the engine will do the rest.
 

riptragle1953

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That was my point. Is there not a ratio between compression and the power needed at the plug to make a spark in the first place?
 

Big Sid

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Only commented on the ultra equipment out of curiosity and wondering on the advantage of the spark it produces . No argument that Magnetoman offers us a huge storehouse of knowledge .
Our 1950 Comet with std magneto is a thrilling ride , amazingly easy starter and does around the ton or better by virtue of our mods . 8 to 1. , ported head taken out to 32mm , ditto carb and manifold . SuperTrapp . It needs no better ignition .
Usually a single kick does it and it ticks over like Big Ben , dead regular . Sid .
 

Magnetoman

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Is there not a ratio between compression and the power needed at the plug to make a spark in the first place?
The necessary experiments might have been done but, if they have, I don't remember running across them. To directly answer your question (albeit, with built-in uncertainty) a test engine would have to be fitted with, say, 11:1 pistons and the energy measured from the coil/magneto required to ignite it reliably (current x voltage integrated over time). Then the pistons replaced with 10:1 and the experiment repeated. However, the lower CR doesn't just change the max. pressure in the cylinder just before ignition, it also affects to some extent the flow of fuel/air in the vicinity of the plug. The motion of this mixture can "blow out" the spark before it reaches the stage of self ignition. While the difference in gas swirling around inside the head probably wouldn't be much difference between 11:1 and 10:1, it probably would be by the time 7:1 was reached. This would give an intrinsic uncertainty to the data collected (e.g. did reliable ignition take place at 0.7 mJ after switching pistons, or was it more like 0.8 mJ?). As just a wild guess, I'd say it would be difficult to extract information from such experiments at an uncertainty any better than 10% at best.

But, to get back to the specific question you asked, based on what I know about this, and all other things being equal (same engine, same fuel,...) I would expect roughly a linear relationship between CR and the power supplied to the plug to generate reliable ignition. The higher CR would require a higher voltage to fire the plug (roughly a linear increase in voltage with CR), but once it fired the same current would be needed from the coil to generate the necessary shock wave. Hence, overall, not a very strong relationship between CR and electrical power necessary from the ignition system.
 
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riptragle1953

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Curosity.... yes me too. I believe I said earlier most of the topic is concerned with things that came about long after my wrenching days were over so I simply don't know about them. Goodness, if there is an electronic kit available.... and it looks nice and really
works good, why would I not like it?
 
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nkt267

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Can a Comet run sweetly with a compact Lucas mag or not?
Having only had Comets my view is that a Comet will run very well on a mag providing it is in good condition.Which mine is not at the moment it's full of oil and needs repairing..john
 

riptragle1953

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If all else is well within the mag it sounds like all you need is a new mag oil seal (not a big job) and the rest needs cleaning and new bearing grease before reassembly.
My saying if all else is well is a matter of luck. Fix it:ride it.
 

Magnetoman

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If all else is well within the mag it sounds like all you need is a new mag oil seal (not a big job) .
Not quite true. It also will need remagnetizing after the armature has been removed to install the seal. It still will work afterwards, but with significantly reduced output.

As to the question someone asked (which I must have missed when it was asked, and a quick search didn't turn it up), i.e. Can a Comet run sweetly with a compact Lucas mag or not?, the answer is 'yes'. However, the mag is 60 years old, so it shouldn't be surprising it needs refurbishing at this point to return it to full health. If I were to rebuild someone's Comet magneto (which I won't do, because I don't do it as a business), I would have no qualms at all about offering a double their money back guarantee against failure for 10,000 miles if no maintenance were performed. If they did just a trivial amount of maintenance at a few points along the way (regrease the cam, measure/adjust the points, inspect and clean carbon from the slip ring) I would increase the length of the warranty. The Lucas magneto is a fundamentally sound design, and is completely capable of providing someone with years of trouble free service after rebuilding before it needs any additional maintenance.

Unfortunately, there are too many magneto rebuilders, some of whom are quite well known and commonly recommended, who use incorrect components and incorrect equipment to remagnetize them (if they remagnetize them at all). I address at length what to look for when searching for someone to correctly rebuild your magneto with proper components at:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=464907#Post464907
 

riptragle1953

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I wrote assuming a mag guy was going to do the actual work and know this. Me, if the mag was strong used a well radiused iron bar a a keeper. I built my own remagnetizer.
 

davidd

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I have learned quite a bit from this thread. First, installation errors are often the source of problems when installing a new BTH. They were for me as well as Minivin. Second, I learned that a lot of ignition theory is still replete with mistakes and misinformation. Third, it is brightness, not color, which is most helpful in assessing the condition of the magneto in the air test (when comparing true magnetos of like design). Fourth, the air test for electronic ignitions, like the new BTH, can only tell you if the ignition is functioning. The brightness of the spark has no apparent relationship to the condition of the ignition as it does when comparing two stock magnetos.

As to the interest in high performance ignitions on Vincents being "absurd to the extreme", there are a few of us who have been trying to relocate to this fantasy world for quite a few years. The stock magnetos, even the TT racing magnetos, have proved to be highly unreliable in the modern vintage racing environment. When Carleton Palmer was racing, he used magnetos built by Mr. Bell, Mr. Gearhart and one well-known British rebuilder. All failed. Some failed with surprising rapidity. Carleton had to switch to electronic to get some needed reliability. BSA Owner, who has helped my racing efforts selflessly, has seen these results at the racing venues and in his own workshop. Many, if not all of the top Manxes are running Interspan electronic ignitions, not because it is a fad, but because they produce lots of high energy sparks for long periods of time. In my own memory of Bonneville runs, I remember only one ignition failure, which was a stock KVFTT. Fortunately, it came after a record run. Most of the other Vincents are running new BTH's and I have never heard of any failures. So, I did not take any offense, but I do like working on going extremely fast.

David
 
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