Poor starting on new Amal and BTH Magneto

redbloke1956

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That's an excellent question. I don't know the equivalent in Australia (maybe the same?), but in the U.S. in the 1950s boys grew up with Lionel electric train sets. I can still smell the odor of what I now know is ozone from those trains. So, since a motor is just a generator operated backwards, doesn't this mean our dynamos are generating ozone as well? The answer is essentially no, but to understand the reason requires a short physics lecture.

Ozone is created when the chemical bond in an oxygen molecule (02) is broken, creating two individual oxygen atoms that are each now free to chemically bond to intact 02 molecules to form ozone (O3). The minimum energy that must be supplied to break the chemical bond in O2 to get this started is 5.2 electron Volts.(eV). While your 6V dynamo nominally is capable of this when at maximum output, the efficiency of doing so is small so near the threshhold voltage, so very little ozone is generated. A Lionel train operated at ~20 V when at full speed, and what boy operated his train at anything other than full speed? (note: Volt and eV are not the same units, but they are related in that an electron accelerated between two electrodes held at a 20 V potential difference will gain 20 eV of energy).

In contrast, the potential across the points in a magneto is several hundred volts when they open, which is far enough higher than the threashold to make for greatly increased ozone production. Further, the ionization cross section (i.e. the probability an energetic electron will knock another electron free from a molecule thus creating an ion) for most molecules has a broad peak centered around ~100 Volts. So, molecules in the vicinity of the spark gap in a magneto are being ionized with great efficiency as well, and ionized species are typically much more chemically reactive than unionized atoms and molecules.

Having given the long answer to your question, the short answer is that because the voltages inside a dynamo are much lower than inside the points housing of a magneto, ozone production is at a very much lower rate. The much lower production of ozone, coupled with the fact he commutator housing is far from hermetically sealed, means it isn't an issue for a dynamo.
Thanks again Magnetoman for the excellent information, just another query on the same issue if I might: When a generator armature is undergoing commutation, while under load, the armature reaction caused by the current flowing distorts the main field so that the brushes no longer line up with the neutral plane, I thought that maybe the collapsing magnetic field in the armature coils (which now have a voltage induced in them because of armature reaction) could produce a voltage much higher than the 6 Volts?
Feel free to shoot this notion down in flames
:confused:
Thanks and regards
Kevin
 

Magnetoman

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When a generator armature is undergoing commutation, while under load, the armature reaction caused by the current flowing distorts the main field so that the brushes no longer line up with the neutral plane, I thought that maybe the collapsing magnetic field in the armature coils (which now have a voltage induced in them because of armature reaction) could produce a voltage much higher than the 6 Volts?
A changing current in a coil induces a voltage in a direction that opposes that change. I'll come back to that, but first let's ignore it.

In the case where we can ignore the armature reaction (i.e. where we can ignore precisely the effect you're asking about), an "ideal" armature would be designed so the brush moved from being symmetrically across the gap between one segment to the next the moment the current through the coil connected to the two segments bridged by the brush had completely reversed direction. In this case, there would be no sparking at the brush because the current would be no longer changing.

OK, what if we don't ignore the voltage induced by the collapsing field (i.e. by the changing current)? Here the magnitude of the effect depends on the specifics of the armature design. A well designed armature will be made with the smallest number of large diameter wires that are necessary to generate the desired voltage (i.e. the 6V or 12V). This is done to keep the inductance of each coil in the dynamo as small as possible, since it is in the inductance that the problematic magnetic energy is stored: the smaller the inductance, the smaller the energy stored in the field, and thus the smaller the induced voltage to cause sparking when that field collapses.

What this means in practice is that although the very real effect you asked about does exist, the small diameter and short length of motorcycle armatures means the coils have a relatively few number of turns and thus the induced "sparking voltage" at the trailing edge of the brushes is small. This is in contrast with magneto armatures whose coils are designed with a large number of turns to maximize the effect of a collapsing field rather than to minimize it.
 

clevtrev

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That's an excellent question. I don't know the equivalent in Australia (maybe the same?), but in the U.S. in the 1950s boys grew up with Lionel electric train sets. I can still smell the odor of what I now know is ozone from those trains.
In England we had proper electric trains, this one`s 1930 vintage. IMG_0040.jpgIMG_0041.jpg
I`ve had it since 1945.
You can see the insulation breaking up. Just like your 1950s Bike.
 
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minivin

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Hi Minivin, Ya gotta admit that the Comet looks better than a twin with only half the problems :p Nice looking Comet mate, are they the Speet? TLS on the front and how good are they (if you have something to compare with)

Regards
Kevin

Hello Kevin,

Oh, I couldn't possibly comment on the aesthetic benefits of a single over a twin ;-) .

Yes, they are the Speet system. I am very impressed with them, the originals were good but these take braking to another level!. I must say though that I have got brand new brake drums as well, so many years of wear have been taken out of the equation and the brakes can now work to their best. A true "Plug and play" upgrade.
 

riptragle1953

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Hey Trevor,
I just bought a basket case 4-6-6-4 brass Challenger which I plan on building to match the Union Pacific's #33985 which they still run and I have been in. It's HO gauge by the way.
What got my attention in you post was "proper electric trains" I I'm just curious what you mean? Take a look at her go by: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sUCUa_gzmU
 

clevtrev

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Hey Trevor,
I just bought a basket case 4-6-6-4 brass Challenger which I plan on building to match the Union Pacific's #33985 which they still run and I have been in. It's HO gauge by the way.
What got my attention in you post was "proper electric trains" I I'm just curious what you mean? Take a look at her go by: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sUCUa_gzmU
By proper, I mean its an electric toy modeled on an actual electric train. Not a steam train powered by electricity.
 

Len Matthews

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I like that Trev. It's a Hornby Metropolitan High Voltage Loco and matching coach. It was Hornby's very first electric train set and designed to run from the household mains supply and used a light bulb as a resistance. Potentially very dangerous and soon replaced with 6v and 20v versions or if if you wanted to be totally safe-clockwork!
 

roy the mechanic

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If the Hornby metropolitan was made in the '30.s, surely it was 110 volts? this may give you a "kick" but should not be as dangerous(fatal) as 240 volts?
 

redbloke1956

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Non-VOC Member
A changing current in a coil induces a voltage in a direction that opposes that change. I'll come back to that, but first let's ignore it.

In the case where we can ignore the armature reaction (i.e. where we can ignore precisely the effect you're asking about), an "ideal" armature would be designed so the brush moved from being symmetrically across the gap between one segment to the next the moment the current through the coil connected to the two segments bridged by the brush had completely reversed direction. In this case, there would be no sparking at the brush because the current would be no longer changing.

OK, what if we don't ignore the voltage induced by the collapsing field (i.e. by the changing current)? Here the magnitude of the effect depends on the specifics of the armature design. A well designed armature will be made with the smallest number of large diameter wires that are necessary to generate the desired voltage (i.e. the 6V or 12V). This is done to keep the inductance of each coil in the dynamo as small as possible, since it is in the inductance that the problematic magnetic energy is stored: the smaller the inductance, the smaller the energy stored in the field, and thus the smaller the induced voltage to cause sparking when that field collapses.

What this means in practice is that although the very real effect you asked about does exist, the small diameter and short length of motorcycle armatures means the coils have a relatively few number of turns and thus the induced "sparking voltage" at the trailing edge of the brushes is small. This is in contrast with magneto armatures whose coils are designed with a large number of turns to maximize the effect of a collapsing field rather than to minimize it.

Thanks again Magnetoman for filling gaps in my knowledge base, sometimes we just don't know what we don't know :)

Regards
Kevin
 

Magnetoman

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View attachment 1854
You can see the insulation breaking up. Just like your 1950s Bike.
I suspect much of that damage to your insulation was due to the ravages of ozone, not the ravages of time, but I decided to do a quick experiment that sheds some light on this.

In case you haven't experienced it, if you happen to find a rubber band on top of a shelf or filing cabinet close to a fluorescent light it will be quite brittle, which I assume is due to the UV light from the bulb. I mention this because my experiment used a rubber band as well as special type of light bulb that emits a lot of UV. However, unlike a fluorescent bulb, this one also emits the distinct smell of ozone. In my experiment I shielded the rubber band from the UV so it was exposed only to the ozone.

I meant to check a few times along the way, but got busy and left it for ~24 hours. When I checked this morning the rubber band was like a rock. Although this was an "uncontrolled experiment," in that I didn't measure the ozone concentration, it nicely shows why you don't want electrical components near ozone.
 
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