FF: Forks Modified Steering Stem

ernie

VOC Assistant Secretary
VOC Member
My small contribution: When FRONT brake is applied a rotational force is applied to the forks which will act on the links in a way depending on their initial orientation. (However by all accounts tank-slappers have occurred before the brakes are applied.) This does not happen with teles'. When the REAR brake is applied it acts on the body of the bike which affects the links in the opposite direction. Learning to ride in the 50s I have always used both brakes. The idea of front only is anathema to me.

One other thing: The frequency of oscillation of the suspension system (front or rear) depends on the compression from free - preload if you like. Softer springs with more preload - lower frequency - better damping needed - more comfortable ride. There may be a correlation between this frequency and that of the wobble.
 

timetraveller

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VOC Member
Softer springs with more preload - lower frequency - better damping needed - more comfortable ride.

That is just what we are aiming for Ernie. Chris, with his 36lbs/inch springs and a new AVO damper thinks that it will be hard to improve on that and the latest, and hopefully final, tests are just to discover whether either Comets or twins can benefit from a slight tweaking of the spring characteristics. We should all know in a few weeks time. There are several people here in Europe who have ordered the whole kit of damper, modified steering head and springs and are just waiting until the details are finalised. Hopefully there should be several users next year who will be as pleased with the mod as Greg and his chums in Oz.
 

greg brillus

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It's actually a bit surprising and a little disappointing that not many are in service yet. It's not a huge time consuming upgrade, easily done in a day, unless you upgrade the bushes for bearings like all the ones I have done, which takes a little longer. We still had Neal's Comet back on the road in a day and a half.
 

hadronuk

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Thanks for the comments. The basic idea is this:

The chart is an attempt to represent the sum of all the downforces at the forks as one line and sum of all the upforces as another line, both plotted against fork extension.

The intersection of the two lines is the point in the forks extension beyond which instability can arise.

Trying to create this chart imposes a discipline in thinking about ALL the forces in play and how they are likely to vary with fork extension.
It then becomes a little easier to understand and describe how changing any factor might make things better or worse.
(For clarity I should mention that I have categorised anything that tends to cause the forks to extend as an “up force” and anything that tends to compress the forks as a “downforce”).
When the bike is being ridden at steady speed, the weight of the bike plus rider creates a downforce which is balanced by the upforce provided by the springs.
And when the front brake is applied, forward weight transfer creates an additional downforce.
But as we know from experience, the same braking force acting upon the Girdraulics links also creates an upforce.
And as we also know, when the sum of all the upforces exceeds the sum of the all downforces we get problems.
If the forks extend even fractionally past the point where the forces are just balanced, the changed link angles create increased lift. We then have a positive feedback loop which is unstable. The forks either extend and lock at full extension or go into a vertical oscillation. I have twice experienced this.

The upforces that need to be taken into account.

Spring preload creates a constant upforce throughout the suspension range and therefore adds to the upforces. So the higher the preload, the closer the forks instability point is to the ride height point and the greater the probability of problems.
In the past it has been assumed that provided the bottom link is always pointed upwards at the front, there will be no upforce. But it cannot be that simple. Under braking the top link is in tension, so when it is pointed upwards at the front it creates an upforce in the same way as the lower link under compression does when it is pointing downwards. Admittedly, upper link forces are always less than lower link forces but they are still significant. And when the lower link is horizontal and supposedly incapable of creating any vertical force, the upper link is pointing up, so net link forces are still creating an upforce.
There is another possible complication. When I tried to calculate the forces I came unstuck when I tried to resolve the forces acting at the end of each link.
Put simply, is the net vertical force zero when a link is horizontal, or is it when the link is at 90 degrees to the fork blades? I am embarrassed because I used to be able to do these calculations.
I have a suspicion all leading link forks can create some uplift. Provided it never exceeds total downforce nothing dramatic happens. But it may explain the apparently unsatisfactory feel of the new Brough under braking.
For completeness, I should also mention that aerodynamic drag (and lift?) on the bike and especially the rider also creates an upforce. It can perhaps be ignored as it is not a function of fork design, but it may be significant for a bike with a marginal fork geometry ridden at high speed.
 

hadronuk

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Practical question. If you wheel a bike with the new steering stem etc along in the garage and snap the front brake on, what happens?
 

hadronuk

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Second thought. A friendly MOT test station with a brake test rolling road might provide a safe means to get a feel for what lift is generated by the modded geometry. Preferably test with two or more people either side of the bike but not on it so downforce is less and and lift is more apparent?
 

timetraveller

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I have just been out to the Walker 'man cave' and had a look at the forks I have set up to do the tests on. Within the limits of what I can measure with a ruler the distance from the pivot at the rear of the lower link to the pivot at the rear of the top link is identical to the distance between the two pivots, top and mid, in the fork leg. That is the upper and lower links are parallel and will remain so over most of their movement. The distance is 230 mm. or about 9 and 1/16th inches. However, when I try to imagine the force on the links while braking, and agreeing that the top link will be under tension, I am having trouble imagining how that leads to an upwards force. Please understand I am not saying that it does not, just that I can't see how it would do that. To my somewhat primitive mind ( I have been taught to walk upright and not drag my knuckles on the floor but not much more than that) if the lower link could not pivot and the brake was applied then the turning action would be about the front of the lower link and the top link would just be under tension. If the top link interfaced with the top of the fork leg at 90 degrees then that would be purely a tension force along its length but as it is not at 90 degrees that can be resolved into two forces, the vertical component of which is comparatively low. In the real world where there is the inertia of both the bike and the rider trying to force the bike downwards at the front under braking then if the lower link is tilted upwards at the front then the net torque on the lower link is at the rear, trying to force it downwards against the spring pressure. It now gets complicated as the fork legs are now trying to rotate about both the front and the rear of the lower link but it seems to me that there will still be very little turning force on the top link. (I am trying to imagine a parallelogram of forces on the top link but cannot see where the upwards force is, but that might be my lack of imagination.)

I suspect it is the complication of the articulation of the lower link which means that you too are having trouble doing the calculation. It is not deteriorating brain power but the complication of forces, and their components, acting at both the front and rear of the lower link, and at changing angles, that causes ones brain to hurt. At the moment it seems to me that the best we can do is to ensure that the wheel moves upwards and backward both when braking and being deflected by a bump but I would love to be shown that there is more that could be done.
 

davidd

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VOC Member
When you roll a bike with the short springs across the floor and grab the front brake it stops with the fork (or the rest of the bike) not changing position up or down. This is because the position of the lower link is level or lower. It is important to remember that there are two things going on when the front brake is used on a stock Vincent, the weight transfers forward, and the fork travels to full extension where it stays until the brake is released. This is like a tele diving to full compression and staying compressed until the brake is released. If a tele did so it is likely that when it was at full compression with no suspension movement that the front wheel would start bouncing as it encountered bumpy pavement. That bouncing would likely caused instability at best and lead to a wobble.

My wobbles have been induced after braking, many times induced by me during testing. Although I believe any two wheeled vehicle can be the subject of wobbles or weaving due to several causes I think it is a question of reducing the proclivity that is important.

I have a dyno video taken from the side that shows the wheelie motion of the bike when the throttle is turned. As Rob mentioned, it is the tendency of the front end to drop back into a safe position that is important. With the short springs it does so readily.

I will say that one other demonstration I would do is to take a stock Vincent and apply the brake with the bike at rest. I then bounce the front end up and down while continuing to hold the brake steady. In just a few seconds, the Girdraulic is at full extension.

You can duplicate these results, but a word of caution. It is difficult to do so with the bike on the rear stand. any movement or bending of the stand, even a few tenths will diminish the seizing effect. When I first experimented with these effects I had to have someone steady the bike off the stand and hold the rear brake on while I moved the handlebars. In fact, when I first found that the Girdraulic performed so poorly in a static position I had difficulty believing that this was related to the dynamic or moving problems. I thought for sure that the front would not seize if I were at speed and the rear wheel could move about. That was why I did so much road testing. Unfortunately, the road testing confirmed the static results.

David
 

hadronuk

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VOC Member
This is a pin jointed mechanism with 3 movable links. Plainly the right hand vertical link is in compression, whereas the LH link is in tension.
When the weight is added, which way will it move?
mechanism001s_zps4oenk0fu.jpg
 
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