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Luggage Fittings

Jock English

Website User
Non-VOC Member
I'm new here, had bikes for years but always wanted a Vincent - now have a '51 Rapide.
I've an old set of Craven panniers and top box from my Matchless and Nortons which clean up well.
I'd like to fit them to the Rap, perhaps with a rack instead of the top box so that I can take a tent roll on top.
I've looked at the books, but would like photos and advice from those who have experience.
Cheers
Jock English
 

wld50

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Some information

There doesnt seem to be a great deal available about panniers/ and their support racks but it has been exercising my mind as well. I hope someone with more experience can correct the mistakes in this, but here goes:

EMG Stevens (Know Thy Beast) illustrates the original panniers in Fig 20 but I cant make out how they were held to the bike. There is also a diagram of a luggage subframe (copyrighted by Gordon Griffiths - Fig 21). Stevens says of Craven that the mounting brackets are positioned too far back and too high, and the assembly lacks the necessary rigidity.

'Craven' in the 1951 MPH 36 (page 249/250 in 'Forty years on' ) is the best illustration I have found of how the Craven pannier rack is fixed. I expect this is the design he was criticising.

Craven made luggage racks and panniers over a long period, and the set I am refurbishing are similar to the Craven in fixings but larger in size with rectangular down sections instead of the curved tube. They carry larger panniers are early 70-s & have metric bolts.

To fit the rack to the bike, on either side there are two supports. The rear one is a 11" 'J shaped' 3/4" x 1/4" steel bar fixed by a clamp to the lift handle/ mudguard stay. The second is a 28" "flattened W shape" which is fitted at the front to (a longer) seat pivot with a small extender bolted to the dual seat stay .

Craven describes 'a cross bracket fixed by three wood screws just behind the tool box'. I dont have that.

The back support goes up and down on an arc with the back wheel and the front support being fixed to the seat follows the seat. There are (bronze?) bearings on the fixing bolts that allow the pannier frame to pivot.

ps If anyone knows where to lay their hands on these bearings (for M8 bolts) can you let me know as the original ones I have are well and truly rusted onto the (mild steel) bolts
 

Jock English

Website User
Non-VOC Member
Sprung?

I had thought about fixing the panniers so that they were fully sprung, but from what you say I now understand the description in KTB.
I still think that I'd prefer to attach the frames to the footrests and rear damper front fixing, but advise, please.
Ta
Jock
 

bmetcalf

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Luggage

I made a rack for Krauser/Denfeld bags using Krauser cast aluminum loops and struts to the footrest plates and the seat front, with a loop connecting the sides in back of the seat. It was not triangulated and sank down during a trip, the loop leaving dents in the top of my SS guard. After that, I made links that connected the assembly to the seat rear lugs, which triangulated it. This does require a fully sprung saddle.

An alternate to retain the seat struts is some added member on each side which triangulates the links from the front to the pannier mount frame.

P 248, 249,260, 275, and 288 of 40YO have food for thought.
 

Robert Watson

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
There is a local guy who makes luggage racks for Norton and Triumph stuff and is interested in making a Vincent rack similar to the ones CTG (?) used to make. If you go to his website http://www.ironjohns.com/ and click on the Vincent Logo you will see a pictures of Dave Molloy's Gunga Vin with a CTG rack on it. It fully suspends the seat as well. He hasn't made any yet but I suspect that by the summer he will have some available, but I don't suspect they will be inexpensive.

Robert
 

ET43

Guest
Luggage racks, panniers and fixings.

The Craven systen described by WLD50 is of the first generation of their racks. Having discovered that fixing behind the seat tore it in half, they redesigned and came up with what was available until just a few years ago. I purchased Cravens' in '05 but was not able to produce racks, panniers, I did. The semisprung system that I did evolved along with the Craven business was sold to Roger Gwynne at Draganfly motorcycles.
I still have 4 sets of my stainless pannier fixing kits left. Having retired, when they are sold there will be no more. As to fully sprung rear ends, if anyone wishes to send me a large sae, I will send you several pictures of the one I made for Minivin. The pictures are descriptive and with dimensions from the Griffiths sledge, it is not too difficult to make such a thing. I believe that Vinparts has the brass bushes for the Craven racks.
I am at home mostly if you want to talk or solicit advice. Details in MPH under the Wylye Valley section.
Cheers, ET43
 

Tom Gaynor

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Craven luggage

I didn't buy a rack from Phil Primmer, not sure if it was what i wanted. No worries, I can design a much simplified one, WITHOUT a rack at the back because i can't get my leg high enough to dismount, and probably save a bit of money. So I did, and was quoted £648 to build it. Phil was good enough to supply me a set of stainless Craven mounts when clearly very, very busy, so giving him something to laugh about in retirement is the least i can do......
My design was a rail straight back from the front of the seat, with a loop over the wheel at the back of the seat (angled at 120 deg to match the stay, please note if attempting to make something that doesn't look hideous) with two angled struts to each footrest plate to carry the vertical load. To this frame were to be mounted a couple of ally plates to which the panniers (Craven Dolomite) would be fixed.
New thinking however, and based on my desire to have something that does NOT look like the Forth Rail Bridge c/w maintenance scaffolding, and does NOT involve welding which I can't do, is based on the original Vincent system.
Two plates made from ally chequerplate about the same size as the pannier cases. Main weight support, a bolt through the rearmost hole in the footrest plate. (The Vin design hangs the (small) panniers from the seat.) A tie to the front of the seat, a loop over the back to stiffen, Phil's beautiful stainless mounts fixed to the plate, panniers affixed, world my oyster: fully sprung, the plates invisible behind the pannier cases, no welding, and there would be nothing higher than the seat to catch my leg on as I dismounted, assuming I could get my leg that high in the first place.
Since i only thought this out an hour ago (before reading this thread) tomorrow's task is to troll up to B & Q for enough plywood to make a mock-up.
Since there is every chance this will prove to be fools gold, keep me posted. If it looks as though it's the real thing, I'll advise. And if i were you, I'd buy one of Phil's last four sets of stainless fittings "while stocks last".
I have copies of the Vin drawings M 043 and M 044, showing how the Vin panniers were fitted, and all the bits. Send personal email for copy. Having KTB to hand helps in understanding them.
 

Jock English

Website User
Non-VOC Member
Luggage

Tom, thanks for your offer, yes please!

I spoke to Phil tonight and discovered that he is the guy from whom i bought the fittings I have on my pannier boxes some years ago.

I like your idea of the simple loop over the back of the seat from the footrest plates, triangulated to the seat front fixing, it's the sort of thing I was thinking of - but would you need even the ally checkerplate?

The fixing can be anywhere on the back of the panniers, and could be arranged on the horizontal bar, with the third one lower down. i have the QD fittings and I think that would work well, and is elegantly simple.

Cheers Jock
 

Jock English

Website User
Non-VOC Member
Photos

I tried but failed to post photos to the forum, so have put some on the Miscellaneous, 2008 "C" club page. I used 12mm SS bar weled together with turned bosses at the front and smaller bosses to bolt the panniers on.
I will try them out at the pre 65 Scottish trial at Kinlochleven later in the month.
Tom, how did you get on with your frames?

Cheers
Jock
 

clevtrev

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
There doesnt seem to be a great deal available about panniers/ and their support racks but it has been exercising my mind as well. I hope someone with more experience can correct the mistakes in this, but here goes:

EMG Stevens (Know Thy Beast) illustrates the original panniers in Fig 20 but I cant make out how they were held to the bike. There is also a diagram of a luggage subframe (copyrighted by Gordon Griffiths - Fig 21). Stevens says of Craven that the mounting brackets are positioned too far back and too high, and the assembly lacks the necessary rigidity.

'Craven' in the 1951 MPH 36 (page 249/250 in 'Forty years on' ) is the best illustration I have found of how the Craven pannier rack is fixed. I expect this is the design he was criticising.

Craven made luggage racks and panniers over a long period, and the set I am refurbishing are similar to the Craven in fixings but larger in size with rectangular down sections instead of the curved tube. They carry larger panniers are early 70-s & have metric bolts.

To fit the rack to the bike, on either side there are two supports. The rear one is a 11" 'J shaped' 3/4" x 1/4" steel bar fixed by a clamp to the lift handle/ mudguard stay. The second is a 28" "flattened W shape" which is fitted at the front to (a longer) seat pivot with a small extender bolted to the dual seat stay .

Craven describes 'a cross bracket fixed by three wood screws just behind the tool box'. I dont have that.

The back support goes up and down on an arc with the back wheel and the front support being fixed to the seat follows the seat. There are (bronze?) bearings on the fixing bolts that allow the pannier frame to pivot.

ps If anyone knows where to lay their hands on these bearings (for M8 bolts) can you let me know as the original ones I have are well and truly rusted onto the (mild steel) bolts

The original set up and parts list for the panniers, is given on M043 M044

You can find those at http://lsvoc.vincent-hrd.co.uk/images/mo44.gif
Change no. for 43
 
Last edited:

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