Misc: Ignition Lucas KVF ?arcing problem - Rapide

Jim Bush

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
The points spring looks like it is rubbing on the cam ring
Yes looks like it - the spring needs to be adjusted to clear the cam-ring - use the screw on the brass pillar. The points plate has to be removed - unscrew the centre screw and before pulling it out give it light tap to release the taper. It goes back in located by a tag. Points gap also looks big - should be 12thou. The plastic nub is an insulator, the spring arm needs to not contact the points block.

The easy cap is the easiest solution for a mag with these symptoms. The mag can be removed without removing the timing cover - only the inspection plate to loosen the auto advance, and the three nuts/1 long stud nut to remove the mag.

Disassembly of the mag is easy - lots of details on line. Don't forget to remove the 2 arcing screws and the pickups, otherwise will damage the Bakelite slip ring when you pull the armature out.

Brightspark provide excellent instructions with photos for the condensorectomy - essentially unsoldering two wires from the existing capacitor and covering them with shrink tube. Can be done in 1/2 hour if you don't have to rectify any other issues with the mag. It will get you back running reliably for a while.

Its a good idea to replace bearing oil seal and clean lube the bearings and replace all carbon brushes (3 No.), clean adjust the points.

The mag has to be re-timed when you re-install it - lots of information on that.
 

shortun

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Have you tried going for a ride with the mag cowl removed so that cooling air is flowing over the magneto, if it doesn't breakdown then you know it's the condenser failing when it gets hot with the cowl fitted.
 

Steve Marks

Forum User
Non-VOC Member
What material is the white pip you have indicated, it should be an insulator, original ones are something like Bakelite. the arm should be a spring fit on it as well.
The condensor is inside the armature, and not something you can readily change, symptoms of this failing are loss of spark when hot, and by the sound of it you do not have this problem.

Chris.
If you follow the design of the points assembly, the rocking points arm is connected to the springs, the other end of the springs is connected to a brass pillar which is part of the brass backplate, the brass backplate has a second pillar which carries the pivot end of the locking plate, The other end of the locking plate presses down on the 'pip' which is a push fit in the rocking arm. That's a complete circle with all the metal parts at the same potential (earth). So the pivot does not need to be an insulator from an electrical function point of view. However, as just mentioned the pip is a tight fit in the rocking arm so, as the arm rocks, the pip grinds backwards and forwards against the underside of the locking plate every time the points open. That calls for different materials so yes, originals were a plastic of some type - not sure what.
They are often missing and we make them from PTFE rod. Not all rocking arms have the same diameter recess to take the pip so the first job is to turn the PTFE rod to the diameter required to get a press fit in the rocking arm. Then just part it off. As the parting off blade nears the centre of the rod, the new pip tends to deflect away from the blade. Keep going and it will eventually part off but with the advantage that that deflection results in a raised pip in the centre which is absolutely ideal to fit into the groove in the underside of the locking plate!

Starts and runs when cold but difficult to start when hot is a common problem with a magneto. Leave it to cool down and it starts and runs OK again.. This is an early warning that insulation is failing somewhere. Ignore the warning long enough and the problem will get worse and eventually, even if it starts OK, it will let you down further down the road. Insulation in a magneto deteriorates with higher temperatures and with age. It could be condenser, coil, slip ring, pickup(s) HT leads, plug caps or any combination of them! Yes, original Lucas condensers are now long past their best and, to be honest, we don't even bother to test them - they are automatically replaced. We always rewind the coil as well. It may look good on the outside but when cut open, original windings are always very green with verdigris. Testing slip rings and pickups while cold is quick and easy - if they fail then they are replaced. If they appear to be OK, we put them in the oven and test again while hot. It's not unusual to find that these Lucas parts fail when cold and much more often when hot - they are usually replaced as well. The fact of the matter is, all these parts, if still originals, are 60-70 years old. Materials and manufacturing technologies have vastly improved in that time so, once replaced with modern alternatives, the magneto should see most of us out! I also mentioned HT leads and plug caps but, to be honest they are far more likely to have been replaced already and rarely show problems.
 

Magnetoman

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Before blaming the condenser, which could well be to blame, park in a shaded spot when you return from a ride, leave the bike running, remove the magneto cover, and observe the points. A good condenser will result in nothing more than tiny pinpricks of light at the points. The worse the condenser is, the brighter the sparks at the points.

No matter what, to replace the condenser requires removing the armature. And, no matter what, removing the armature causes a "permanent" loss of some of the magnetism (anyone who claims otherwise is wrong). You didn't mention your age, but if you're 18 this loss won't matter because you won't have a problem kicking it over at the higher speed that will be required to generate a spark. However, if you're older, it could matter, so along with replacing the condenser you will have to remagnetize the magneto to restore the "lost" magnetism after your reassemble it.
 
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