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Lagging the oil tank

Tom Gaynor

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Following the recent thread on "what oil for your Vincent" - has anyone tried lagging the UFM? I know that blocking the space between UFM and tank to prevent air flow has been done before, but I can foresee problems in any subsequent removal / refitting. Has anyone tried anything else? What I had in mind was Acme Vincent tank lagger, just cut to size with scissors, sticks in place, easily removable when desired.
 

ET43

Guest
Tank Lagging and other things.

Many years ago at a Deers Hut meeting Trevor Southwell probed everyone's Vin for oil temperature. Even Adrian Cattell's oil who had ridden some 140 miles from Derby, was not up to working temperatur, reading around 150F I seem to recall. Too much airflow betwixt UFM and tank methinks. On another subject for twin owners. Remove your gearbox dip stick, degrease it, paint it with matt black paint and you are able to see the okl level ok. Finally, another subject. To equalise the carb slide lift, fashion two 6" long 5/8" wide 1/16" thick alloy strips, bevelled on one side, and with a 1/8" wide slot 5/8" deep in one end. Wind back the slide stops until they are resting on their base, insert the alloy sticks bevel side down until they touch the inner side of the carb side of the slide and adjust the slide stops until they only just make the ends of the stick twitch. This can be seen by standing at the handlebar whilst operating the twist grip, then you can adjust the cables to suit and it does not entail geriatric mechanics whilst trying to stick a finger up the hole and look at the other one. Comet owners will be in their element here.
Happy New Year to you all, and keep all your wheels on the ground. ET43
 

Tom Gaynor

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The answer to derek's question is in ET43's response. The oil never gets to a reasonable working temperature, so never evaporates off (for example) water vapour.
Without giving way on the question of lagging, how to, I balanced the carbs on another vee-twin, a Guzzi Le Mans II. It didn't take long to find out that balancing the carbs was not just a matter of having the slides at the same height. I used a Carbtune, a pair of manometers, initially mercury, later stainless steel (gauges are useless, not sensitive enough). Starting with the slides at the same height so that it idled evenly, I had to adjust mixture so that the pots remained in balance as the slides lifted.
When I'd done that, which involved a fair amount of changing idling settins, the motor was significantly smoother. Balanced, one might almost have said..... Same was true of a Ducati 900 Monster: the slides were at the same height, but a ducati guru balanced the pick-up for me and it was like a new bike.
 

Ken Tidswell

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
lagging

As a pragmatist all I would do is to find some expanded polystrene and trim it to fit the gap(s), If you are lucky enough you could find some grey or black coloured material , so much the better. Not pretty but those who prefer the experimental approach satisfying could have some fun, Ken
 

BlackLightning998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Why not use an oil which operates at lower temperature - the technology exists today?

Two questions come to mind:

First is that given the outstanding design of the bike I'd have thought that if there is an air gap around the UFM then there are only two possible reasons for it, firstly that the manufacturing techiniques and tolerances meant that it had to be made that way (I suspect not) and then secondly that it was designed that way - in which case we should ask why?

Second then, assuming that it is operating as designed then oppose to lagging the UFM why not just use a different oil which delivers its performance as a lower operating temperature?

Stuart
 

Len Matthews

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
All interesting stuff but I've seen some Series D's with extended oil tanks so is the increased capacity a bad thing?:confused:
 

timetraveller

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
No need to go to all the trouble of making something to get the carbs with the same lift as suggested by 'Pushrod'. The bit you need is already on your bike in the form of H36/1, the motion block for the rear brake. I have been using these for this purpose for 50 years, man and beast, and you always have one with you! I do one carb and then the second using the same block and it takes very little time.

Regarding Tom's point re. using the flow to balance the carbs; I used to tune an 'E' type Jag (three carbs) and (unsuccesfully) tried all the usual dodges until I came across the Gunson Carbalancer. It completely solved the problem and made the task trivial. It also works well with a Vincent twin but is easier if you can get someone to hold the throttle steady.

Happy New Year to you all.
 

Tom Gaynor

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Lagging tanks

(The carb balancer I bought was made in Ulster. Someone to operate the throttles is a big advantage, unless you have three arms and two heads.)

I've just bought 20 litres of straight 40, and it's bloody freezing outside, and likely to be for several months.....so I'm looking for a short term fix. Next time I'll buy 0-40. The STF is likely to be polystyrene wodged into place, thanks, Ken.

I suspect the underlying belief is that oil needs to be cooled if anything, whereas it has been known for years that Vincents have the opposite problem (hence the widely known advice that you shouldn't start it unless you intend to ride it at least 10 miles). Not only is this subject covered in great depth in FYO and ATY, it can be assumed that Trevor didn't conduct his experiment because he'd suddenly gone doolally, but because he expected to find what he did.

I pass on the comments of a fellow racer, that more bikes stopped in races because the oil-cooler started to leak, than ever stopped because the oil got too hot......
 

BlackLightning998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
FYO and ATY

I know I should recognise the two publications but it must be late - what are the titles please.

Terry Prince (who rebuilt my engine in 2006 before I bought the bike back) recommends fully synthetic so long as I use a full flow oil filter cartridge.

He's done a bit and should surely know what is what.

Stuart

(The carb balancer I bought was made in Ulster. Someone to operate the throttles is a big advantage, unless you have three arms and two heads.)

I've just bought 20 litres of straight 40, and it's bloody freezing outside, and likely to be for several months.....so I'm looking for a short term fix. Next time I'll buy 0-40. The STF is likely to be polystyrene wodged into place, thanks, Ken.

I suspect the underlying belief is that oil needs to be cooled if anything, whereas it has been known for years that Vincents have the opposite problem (hence the widely known advice that you shouldn't start it unless you intend to ride it at least 10 miles). Not only is this subject covered in great depth in FYO and ATY, it can be assumed that Trevor didn't conduct his experiment because he'd suddenly gone doolally, but because he expected to find what he did.

I pass on the comments of a fellow racer, that more bikes stopped in races because the oil-cooler started to leak, than ever stopped because the oil got too hot......
 

Tnecniv Edipar

Well Known and Active Website User
Non-VOC Member
Regarding doubts about if oil tank lagging is necessary , IMHO it very definately is. The oil temp research referred to indicated clearly that the bulk oil temp in the tank was below that required for the oil to perform correctly. In fact , I saw 1 ref that the question was put to an oil company and they advised that a 10w oil was needed for the temperatures seen !!

Personally , I think the reason for low oil temp is the slow oil circulation of the Vincent oil system and the large expanse of the alloy engine.

Using a lower viscosity oil is not the answer , temperature needs to be above 80 deg c at least to evapourate water & combustion deposits off at a reasonable rate.

Even though lots of owners reckon they get acceptable mileage between overhauls , I think the engine is capable of much more durability if oil temp was at the correct level.
 

Tom Gaynor

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Happy ending: I bought a roll of 2 mm aluminium foil / polystyrene from B & Q (£6), stuck it to the UFM with double-sided sticky, and used the other 98% of the roll for its design purpose, reflecting heat from the back of a radiator into the room instead of into the wall. What made it particularly happy was that it is invisible in place, and has survived several tank removals and replacings. It also seems to have a noticeable effect in both applications.
 

Hugo Myatt

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
My Rapide acquired in 1964 or thereabouts had the Petrol Tank padded at the bottom and in the tunnel with thick co**** felt. I am sure it was intended and succeeded in reducing engine clatter. It settled on the UFM with a pleasing squish. I am sure it was equally effective at lagging the oil tank. I had no problems with overheating. It was only abandoned after I dented the petrol tank and fitted a £5 replacement.
 

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