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H: Hubs, Wheels and Tyres Embarrassing Brake Squeal. 8" VOC Brakes.

54rapide

Website User
VOC Member
Please help!
Hi, has any one else experienced this and managed to cure it. I purchased the 8" Brake conversion from the Spares Company a while back but did did not fit them straight away. They have been on the bike for about 3 years now but what with lock down I would say that they have not completed more than a 1000 miles in total. After initial fitment all was good until around 200 miles when the front brake would squeal when coming to a final halt. I decided to strip out the front wheel in case I had incurred any grease loss from the nilos seals but all appeared dry. The shoes had some blackened/glazed appearance to the shoes but quite uniform with contact over 80% of the shoe, so I cleaned this up with glass paper as well as the inside surface of the drum.
Having put it all back together the brake was quiet and appeared to be bedding in nicely, quite an improvement over the old Rapide set up which I was very pleased with. During all this time only normal moderate braking had been applied albeit with a sidecar. However after another 200 to 300 miles the horrendous brake squeal returned, its noise severity could be increased or decreased by the amount of brake pressure applied.
This time as well as cleaning up the shoes and drums I applied copper slip to the pivot pins and to the faces of the cam to shoes. I also inspected the adjustment of the fork spindles and headstock bearings. Although not bad I decided to replace the headstock cups, cones and bearings and to readjust the fork spindles. Again all was quiet for the next 200 or so miles.
I contacted the spares company for there opinion although they had not received any other concerns on 8" SLS brake. They advised me to chamfer the ends of the linings, which they already had been from new.
This year I have removed and sold the side car (although not to blame) as I fancied going solo again, cleaned up the front brake during the return to solo adjustments and replaced the front and rear tyres. All was good but now the brake squeal has returned. I have decided to see whether it will improve overtime but I am now having to transfer to rear brake application in town which I am not happy with due to the embarrassing squeal so need to cure this.
As a foot note even moving the bike by hand around the garage the brake will squeal.
Thanks, Alan
 

erik

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I have read a book from Karl Hertweg the Chief Journalist of Das Motorrad in the fiftys. The title was "Besser machen" ( Make Things better) and I can highly recommend this book if you understand German. In this book there is a chapter About Brakes and an article About squiling Brakes.The author says that there is Nothing more difficult to find out why the Brakes are noisy and in some case there is Nothing to heal . Regards erik
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Generally the only real fix is to have the shoes re lined with a different material.........usually a softer material, as hard ones tend to cause squealing. It is caused by a high frequency vibration.
 

Albervin

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
A couple of things you can try. First encase the brake shoe springs in a tight fitting rubber tube. This will stop the springs from oscillating. and hopefully stop the squeal and potentially stop the springs from breaking. Secondly, and more expensive is to change the material on the brake shoes.
Have you chamfered the radius of the brake shoes?
 

Hugo Myatt

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Generally the only real fix is to have the shoes re lined with a different material.........usually a softer material, as hard ones tend to cause squealing. It is caused by a high frequency vibration.
Years ago one could get brake shoe springs with swivelling end hooks. I think they were from Ron Kemp. I fitted them to the squealing front brakes on my Comet. The squeal ceased. I don't know why they should work or how but they did. Hugo
 

delboy

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
For what it's worth, about 8 years ago I worked on an open "D" and did every dodge known to Vincent owners to quieten the standard front brakes. After a short time they would squeak again. Only changing to a "softer" lining cured the problem.
Cheers,
Delboy.
 

54rapide

Website User
VOC Member
Hi, thanks to all for your replies. I'll wait a little longer before I respond, I would have thought that there must be other users of the 8" brake that have experienced the same problem unless they can state otherwise. Perhaps they could also advise when they purchased their brake package from the Spares Company.
I was on the VOC, Coventry Section Stand at Founders Day over the weekend and a member from the East Midland's Section with the same front brake set up had exactly the same brake squeal. Having just started his machine, he was only check braking when mounted whilst manoeuvring from the club stand setting but unfortunately I only noticed this as they were leaving, so no time to chat.
 

Cyborg

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I wonder if the springs with the swivels were actually exhaust springs? You’ll have to excuse the Japanese writing. Speaking of Japanese, when Honda supplies brake pads, they used to (and maybe still do) supply a small packet of molycoat M77. Yes it’s a different kettle of fish, but they used M77 because they found it was the best thing for reducing brake squeal. Basically high frequency vibration. A small dab on the pivot points wouldn’t hurt. Just a suggestion… I haven’t tried it on drum brakes.8DFC407C-D30C-490E-88FF-6C04AD8FB2E1.jpeg
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I love the wording of that,
Years ago I worked in a Garage, And with the new brake shoes, Was a little tube of grease,
With the wording, " For use on the working parts ",
So this Greek lad thought the Linings were the working parts, And smeared grease all over the linings !,
The Foreman came back from Road test and said !, ----------- I had better leave that bit out !!.
 

Cyborg

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I love the wording of that,
Years ago I worked in a Garage, And with the new brake shoes, Was a little tube of grease,
With the wording, " For use on the working parts ",
So this Greek lad thought the Linings were the working parts, And smeared grease all over the linings !,
The Foreman came back from Road test and said !, ----------- I had better leave that bit out !!.
Kinda makes you wonder about the his job interview and references? Hopefully the Forman threw the guy in the tip when he was done with him.
 

Mark Fisher

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hi, thanks to all for your replies. I'll wait a little longer before I respond, I would have thought that there must be other users of the 8" brake that have experienced the same problem unless they can state otherwise. Perhaps they could also advise when they purchased their brake package from the Spares Company.
I was on the VOC, Coventry Section Stand at Founders Day over the weekend and a member from the East Midland's Section with the same front brake set up had exactly the same brake squeal. Having just started his machine, he was only check braking when mounted whilst manoeuvring from the club stand setting but unfortunately I only noticed this as they were leaving, so no time to chat.
I have been using the club 8” brakes for the last 8 or 9 years (21k miles) and have not experienced this problem except when the bike has been stood for a few days and the humidity was very high. After a few applications of the brakes the squeal goes away. For the most part the bike (52 shadow) is used 2-3 times a week so it’s not really a problem. However these brakes are fully bedded in and I do use them to their full capability a lot of the time. I wonder if your bike just needs some miles and some hard usage to get them to bed in and behave?
 

davidd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Dave Tompkins had 8" brakes that squealed. I slipped some fuel line over the springs and it may have helped. Mike Hawthorne had 8" brakes that squealed, but he ignored it. Ignoring it is fine as long as the vibration does not beak the springs. I lock wired Dave's spring to corral the parts if they broke.

Brake linings are hygroscopic and the moisture will cause squealing until the lining heats up. The lining in Vincents do not heat up unless you are very hard on them. On Dave's bike, It became a moot point as I replaced the brake shoes as well as the linings. I decided later that I would also switch to grooved linings going forward. Dick Hunt recommended grooved linings to prevent tram-lining and to remove debris.

Chamferring the leading edges can also help. When linings are new they are very unstable and they wobble around wildly. Chamferring the leading edge stiffens the lining by taking off material that would otherwise vibrate and squeal. As the lining wears you do not have to keep chamfering the leading edge because the lining becomes thinner due to the wear and becomes stiff enough to resist vibrating.

I think all the responses have been good including Mark's discussion about bedding in.

David
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
As anyone who raced in the golden years knows AM4 alloy brakes squealed and squealed we ran copper wire through the springs to stop the spring bits falling in.
However the brake plates on our TLS 7" brake on standard shoes are CAD machined out of a 7075 alloy billet with strengthening ribs and the linings due to the geometries of the TLS in standard drums are turned to fit the drums to about half the thickness of standard linings made of AM4 substitute from Saftek and there are two separate springs operating their own shoes. We are two race meetings in and no squeals yet.
 

54rapide

Website User
VOC Member
Hi, again thanks for your replies. I am grateful for Mark Fishers comments on is usage of the 8" brakes. I will wire the release springs for safety and continue to use the brakes perhaps a little more aggressively and let you know the result. I just need to convince my wife that I need to use the bike more.
Thanks to all.
 

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