Crank build for racing engine

chark_mandler

Active Forum User
VOC Member
I have a Norton Model 50 that was last raced in the late 80's. Unfortunately it sat is Castrol R and my dads and on stripping the big end is dead. The flywheels are push together with no nuts and I found a speedway crank pin that just needed shortening to fit. I originally made the flywheels from EN40B and had them nitrided.
I got an engine tuner to push the flywheels together and now checking them a few months later there is no side clearance on the rod and putting the flywheels between centres once side in half a thou out but the other is four thou out! Originally both sides clocked up under half a thou.
Can anyone recommend someone that can true up my flywheels. Preferably in the Yorkshire area (UK) although I don't mind traveling pretty much anywhere for quality work.
Thanks
 

DucATIRadeon

Well Known and Active Forum User
Non-VOC Member
ask the guys that build speedway engines!

had my Royal Enfield AVL 500 (machismo?) rebuilt with JAWA bigend and bigend bearing and conrod, all identical to a particular JAWA engine model. the old man trued up the crank to within 0.01mm both sides!

as speedway tuners frequently pull apart and rebuild cranks, they've got plenty experience and knowledge!

PS: my RE 500 cranks are balanced to 60% and run sweet with very low vibes between 2500 and 4000rpm.
what balance factor are you using and/or going to use with the Model 50?
IMG_1112.JPG
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
So, so, you got a Jawa conrod plus bearings in your Enfield. Why did you not keep to the fully floating Enfield bush in big end ? That is what you were thinking of for rebuilding the Vincent crank ?
In your photo this does not look like a Enfield crank, rather all Jawa ?

Vic
 

DucATIRadeon

Well Known and Active Forum User
Non-VOC Member
the crank in the picture is all Enfield except for the bigend and conrod (bigend bearing is the same that Enfield uses: 35x4219).
this crank was already needle bearing, including the large full diameter 35mm crankpin. not going to change that. bearing running direct in the conrod.
JAWA crank has solid flywheels in various stroke sizes using the same bigend bearing (running on needle bearing mains too!) and the mildest cam make it start to push out 65hp from 5000rpm, depending on the cam you use the feariest cam makes it give 98hp from 6000 to 13000rpm, without balance shafts on crank shafts pressed in without using mills pins of keyways!! for a 500cc 4valve single I find that pretty impressive.

and my next Enfield project will be utilising JAWA flyweels and bigend and bearing in Enfield mainshafts and steel conrod (length 6.875"/175mm)
and attempt to retrofit hydraulic valve lifters from the efi bullet in the old cast iron bullet model. just for the fun of it.

this is the AVL crank, with the large bigend pin and flesh around it being the only difference with the original/other models. you can google JAWA cranks yourself. I go to this guy and explore possibilities.
IMG_1113.JPG


this is the AVL engine, developed by the company AVL in Austria, the largest differences being the crankshaft (shorter conrod, metric bigend bigend same as the majority of high(er) performance single engines such as KTM and Yamaha Raptor 700 engines) and the cylinder head. ALL cylinder head features are taken 1:1 in the EFI bullets!
A2479B08-3FC3-4778-965B-B48F5EA4A30E.JPG


the steel conrod and RE13 (alpha) bigend. small end ¾", H-H distance 6.875" / 174.5mm, crankpin 1" press fit like the Vincent and bearing diameter 1.25" / 31.75mm. and all this just to get the steel conrod!
WhatsApp Image 2021-04-12 at 18.57.56.jpeg

as for the other enfield (the Bullet 500), short story:
- aluminium conrod has finite "life", steel has almost infinite life when it comes to alternating stress.
- Hitchcock in UK does not sell the steel conrod for floating bush and neither do they publish the dimensions (from what I can gather: its "all British made, no reworked Indian parts and therefore its the best in the world and we won't tell you anything about it").
- they do sell the steel rod with RE13 needle bearing (alpha) and later they offer the RE15 needle bigend; might be mistaken but it appears to be the above 35x42x19.
-I wanted steel conrod so purchased that one with the RE13. when measured it turned out to be an exact replacement for the floating bush! it takes you f*ckin' €500 (shipping, Brexit etc) to get that information. as per ABSAF advice: the needle bearing is fine for road work just don't pull hard below 2500rpm in 3rd and top gear. so RE13 needle bigend goes in.
- the original floating bush bigend I still have, along with a new one but in aluminium conrod (yes with steel pressed bush into the big eye). its fine just not the aluminium conrod.
- in india, with ambient temps and oils far from "European" standards, if a floating bush can survive for many many miles and trips to the Himalayan mountians using elephant snot for grease and monkey piss for oil, together with a minimalistic oil pump, it sounds to me that a Vincent engine with very similar dimensions should eb able to survive for equally many miles on the same config as it does with the proclaimed 3rows per conrod original design.

I still have the original Vincent crank, and found a supplier for babbit, and may well experiment with floating bushes in a Vincent crank running one 2-start oil pump. again, as nobody has ever thought of this concept, or at leat tried it, there is no information available, its cursed and taboo and so will have to find out myself the hard way, again, as usual.
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Thanks for showing lots of photos about Enfields and all, I did not know they did pressed up cranks as I´d believe they kept the bolted up cranks and floating bush for easy maintenance in India anywhere. To be open, I am a roller bearing follower, nothing wrong with rollers in bigends , provided they are the right size and oil is kept clean - which you want with plain bushes as well !! Still big Japanese singles or KTM got their roller big ends and pressed up cranks, no troubles basically from this. Again, oil filtration is the big matter for having a long lasting engine either way.

Vic
 

DucATIRadeon

Well Known and Active Forum User
Non-VOC Member
the bolted Enfield crank assembly is as old/common as all other engines. its only from the AVL design project (2004-2005?) they started to do press-fit bigends; they were just a few years' behind following the engineering development (and trend) as the other makes.
quite literally: the Enfield Bullet engine up to 2007 was pretty much unchanged from 194? with the exception of improved and much more readily available metic bearings and fasteners.
the Machismo (AVL engine) was from 2005 to 2009, and the EFI Bullets were modernised old Bullets with the AVL tech and added electrics and fuel injection and hydraulic tappets and auto-decompressor and what not. they're actually pretty good and did a real good job in making new retro models!

so the bolted cranks has nothing to do with simple maintenance in India.
And, the press fit bigend cranks are cheaper and simpler to produce and true!

oil filters are important, no debate there; RE use(d) the same old socks and panty's as oil filters as the Vincent did/does back in the day.

imagine a Vincent with forged one-piece crank, plain/floating bigends and conrods with bolted endcaps. no more pressing up and trueing and press fitting parts and looking for the right needles and cages etc. etc..
add some NASCAR influence/tech :)
sorry drifting off there
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
The plain bearing one piece crank can induce some other weaknesses, just different to the common pressed up types. In case you might be interested in thorough investigations of engine failures in mainly twin engined aircraft with typical flat four or sixes in Pipers, Cessnas and all, scroll down a third of a big PDF, lots of pictures - and not pretty at all, might lead to sleepless nights. Remember these engines are not old , max. crank speeds below 2700 rpm and in that class often turbos fitted for 300 hp plus. I say, with 10-20 kg added in critical places they would be totally safe for air work. Modern trucks do 800 000 km up to 1.5 million km per engine and then get scrapped or sold to poor countries, never troubles like in that PDF.

Vic

engine failures
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Your kind of describing what we are doing with a single and cut twin engines here in Aussie.....It is a work in progress and I have not gone to too much trouble to talk about it on here due to needing more testing time.......Small teething issues which is to be expected with performance mods......Luckily no major blow ups.....we can't afford for that to happen on account of not enough spares to simply replace smashed heads, pistons and so on.......We have gone to using 6 m stem Titanium valves with no step on the stem........Beehive springs with titanium retainers......1.25: ratio needle roller rockers.......5/16" hollow pushrods which are just over 100mm long........Chev 900 base circle race type roller cam with needle rollers in the center no bushes.......our own design roller cam followers........Most all valve train and follower components from an LS Chev........windage set up in the base of the crank case........auxiliary bolt on sump to keep oil away from the crank plus timing chest bypass outlet draining oil directly to this bolt on sump........Using a conventional pressed up crank but running 100 mm stroke at present........next engine will have a one piece short stroke crank, with full oil pressure pump, oil jet under piston.......so on and so on......next major is to design our own cylinder head to increase the port height area and stand the valves up for a shallow combustion chamber, less dome height on piston, so better lighter piston........On it goes......Have ridden the bike a bit but not a lot.......it does seem to go very well.......no dyno figures yet, but soon enough.........Once it has enough "Shake down time" then I will go into more detail.......It is somewhat expensive, but very time consuming.......Madness really, but why not.
 

bmetcalf

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
How do you hold the valve stem collars in place?

I assume the special cylinder heads are legal in the racing class?

Good luck with this, it sounds exciting!
 
Top