Comet suspension

greg brillus

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Thanks Bill, I think his comments were a bit unfair...!! I know of some old women who happen to ride really hard......Sorry bad joke.....I would be the first to shove Reg out of the way and let you have first ride of the racer....unfortunately Reg is a bit closer to me than you are, but I will be thinking of you lot when I fire it up.... I agree that his footrest are very high, even higher than mine....?! It actually looks like he's using the kick start footpiece as his footrest. I will continue to put more info and photos on the racer thread very soon, as there is lots happening, and I will be reassembling parts for the final time starting next week. I do not want to interfere with this thread too much, as it has been a fantastic one. It has taught me a huge amount about the front end and handling characteristics of these bikes...something that, as I have said before....is a real grey area for most.....even well seasoned Vincent people with years/decades of experience have all learned something from this. I have really enjoyed it.......Greg.
 

davidd

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I have received a follow-up from Carlteton Palmer on the new steering stem on his D Shadow. He is using a Thornton damper on the front and in testing the travel found that the stock Series D long eye bolts are best for him. He has settled on two red spring (75 lbs. each) and is happy with them. I am a little surprised that the light spring works so well for him, but TT predicted that they could be the clear choice for a start!

David
 

greg brillus

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Hi there David, thanks for that.....on a similar note, I managed to push the racer around the shop this afternoon, and it too feels much lighter in the steering, to move around. Although I must admit it felt a bit gooey on the tires, as they do seem to be amazingly sticky and soft.....it's like pushing your finger nail into a piece of plastersine. I will update some photos soon, as it is getting it's exhaust done this week. It is really coming along now.........Greg.
 

Bill Thomas

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Hello David, I would have thought Carlteton had used some Packers as well ?. I hope he has an Hydraulic steering damper, Cheers Bill.
 

timetraveller

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The thing to remember Bill is that the space for the spring length is reduced with the new head stems and the springs are now more vertical. So just fitting them already preloads them. That does not mean that the 75 lbs/inch springs will be right for everyone but I guessed that it would be a good place to start. Thanks to David and Carleton for the feedback.
 

timetraveller

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Some of you will know that Patrick Godet is running a bike on the Isle of Man this year and his rider, Bruno Leroy, was having trouble with handling under braking. David Dunfey contacted me to find out whether I had any of the modified steering heads left, based upon John Emmanuel's modification. I was out of the UK when the email arrived and David very kindly sent one of his to Patrick directly from the USA as that was likely to arrive before I could get one to Patrick. Below is what Patrick has written to David after his rider has tested them.


"I would like to thank you so much for the decisive improvement you have provided in helping me to solve the Girdraulic wobbles occurring on very hard braking.
Bruno went to test the machine yesterday to a track near Paris and confirms the machine has calm down and is not wobbling in fierce conditions.
You have made me save a lot of time as even after 40years +of Vincentering I never heard of such a mod and never had any problem at my racing time because the brake were OK one lap I was using engine brake that was almost all nothing to compare with our actual far better front brake.
I am so glad I can send the safest possible machine to such a dangerous track"


This is not a sales pitch as, without making a new batch, I do not have any more to sell, but a confirmation to those who have bought the modified items, but not yet used them, that professional racers do find handling improved. Good luck to Bruno and Patrick and thanks to John Emmanuel for letting us copy his modification.
 

A_HRD

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Thanks for the positive update. So is Patrick using "Dunfey Springs" too?

Peter B
Bristol, UK.
 

davidd

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Thanks for the positive update. So is Patrick using "Dunfey Springs" too?

Peter B
Bristol, UK.

Peter,

No, Patrick is using a coil-over front damper, so there are no spring boxes. This is exactly what Greg Brillus is doing and it shows that you can have the same problem with a coil-over with too much preload. This is why changing the steering stem was necessary.

I also believe that the new steering stem is the best solution for this particular type of bad handling. The short springs are an easy and inexpensive fix that will give you a big margin of safety. However, the new steering stem changes the geometry while the springs simply cause the front end to stay away from the effects of the bad geometry.

I think it is interesting that John Emanuel and I both came up with new steering stems independently. John did it much earlier, but it is a small amount of confirmation that the steering stem is a solution. I would also not that the geometry of the our steering stems differ by a very small amount. To me, this also confirms that we were both on the right track.

As it turns out, I was helping Patrick with an unrelated issue when he mentioned that Bruno had reported wobbling and hopping of the Girdraulic under heavy braking. I knew that Bruno was headed to the TT and I could not imagine being stuck on an ill-handling bike for hours. I had noticed in photos that the angles of the fork links were not what I would want to see on my bike, so I mentioned it to Patrick. Of course, when Patrick was racing he used engine braking rather than the brakes, which would fade rather quickly. Now that he had solved the braking problem by installing very powerful brakes, the forks protested.
Front Close Up.JPG

In a corner like this I would expect the bottom link to be straight out from the eccentric, not pointing down as it is. This means the fork is at or near full extension, so any braking will cause the wheel to bounce up and down as the fork goes rigid.

I wanted to send Patrick my own steering stem as I could make another, but I had never had a chance to test it, so I thought it would be better to send the Emanuel steering stem that Norman made. I felt that the testing that Greg did was sufficient. I have to thank Pat Manning,who loaned me the stem as well as Norman, who would have driven one of his half way to Patrick upon his return.

I mentioned earlier in this post that if you improve the front brakes you should seriously consider the consequences. Additionally, if you convert to taper roller steering head bearing, I would definitely consider changing steering stems. If you are doing the disassembly any way I would also want the benefit of having a clean round steering stem tube, which is necessary for seating the new bearings. Often the original steering stem tubes are not uniformly round or are corroded.

Best of luck to Patrick with the new Flash. Also, to Bruno, who is a great rider, I hope he can now focus on having a good ride with a good result!

David
 

greg brillus

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It is quite possible looking at Patrick's bike above, he has from what I can see, one of the Thornton shock's on the front, which has been threaded and a coil fitted, or else he has just installed one of the coil overs readily available for the rear, and fitted it to the front. I would say that the spring loading will be way too high. I had some springs made to suit my coil over, and opted for one rated at 180 to 190 lb.'s which as we all know, is the same loading as that of the Brampton's. I would think on a single, you could even use a slightly weaker spring given its low weight. I think for my rear spring I have a 300 lb. spring installed, remembering they are easy to change, and you can wind the pre-load up and down as well. Anyway, it is great that Patrick has seen an instant result, and it will only improve as he learns from feedback by his rider. As David said, the change to the links via the stem is definitely a massive improvement, and although it is not as cheap an option as just changing the front springs......it is far cheaper than a bad handling bike that tosses you down the road. I and a few others look forward to giving each other continued feedback on the success of this most worthwhile modification. Once again I dearly thank the help from David Dunfey, Norman Walker, and John Emmanuel, for having the foresight to implementing this simple but very clever modification. I realize that it is only as good as it's installation, and the mods I carried out are perhaps far more than is really necessary, particularly on a road bike.......but I had a bit of time up my sleeve, and chose to do as much as I could to improve the front end. Really at the end of the day, all we have done is change the bad characteristics of the Girdraulics to the good characteristics of the Brampton's, and we know the Girdraulics are far stronger, plus the travel will be better than the Brampton's as well. People at the track often ask me when I am going to "Do Away" with that bad handling useless frame/fork combination in favor of a Featherbed frame. They always look at me totally unconvinced when I tell them it is completely unnecessary.......I don't get too involved, there is too much to explain, so I let them think otherwise. Anyway, its good news all round, well done to all involved...............Cheers.............Greg.
 
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