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Tech. Advice: Series 'B' / 'C' 500cc/1000cc Bikes
Poor starting on new Amal and BTH Magneto
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<blockquote data-quote="Magnetoman" data-source="post: 42482" data-attributes="member: 2806"><p>I noticed this thread a few days ago but have restrained myself from commenting. As you might expect given the strong demands for greater fuel economy and lower emissions, the properties of spark ignition have been intensively studied, and all aspects are quite well understood. Unfortunately, they are not well understood by most magazine writers and web sites, so much misinformation circulates.</p><p></p><p>Spark ignition has a lot of aspects to it, and so any accurate description of it must be fairly complicated and technical. However, in what follows, I'm going to simplify (even <em>greatly</em> simplify) the processes, and make direct connection to what a proper understanding means for ignition systems for our motorcycles. Taking something easy first:</p><p></p><p>What should have been said is that a magneto must produce a spark that will jump a 5mm gap (i.e. 10x the gap of a spark plug) at room pressure in order that it have sufficient voltage to jump the 0.018" (1/2 mm) gap at the ~150 psi in the combustion chamber. In other words, if you <em>don't</em> see a spark across a plug at room pressure you definitely have a faulty magneto, but even if you do it tells you nothing about whether the magneto will start the engine. </p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">This is nonsense. Here's a greatly simplified description of what goes on when a spark ignites ignition:</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">--Within a few hundred microseconds or less the voltage across the plug has risen to a high enough value for things to start happening.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">--Free electrons in the gap between the electrodes are drawn toward the positive electrode, colliding with oxygen, nitrogen, and fuel molecules and liberating more electrons that also are attracted to the positive electodes. At the same time the positive ions that have been created by the loss of electrons are drawn toward the negative electrode, also colliding with other molecules along the way. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">--When the positive ions hit the negative electrode electrons are released, which travel toward the positive electrode. The motion of these electrons/ions creates an ever growing cascade.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">--Within a small fraction of a microsecond after all of the above starts the instantaneous current in the channel where all of this is happening has reached several hundred Amps, which is called "breakdown." </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'"></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'">--The conversion of electrical energy to kinetic energy of the molecules is very efficient, resulting in temperatures over 50,000 C in the channel. This is actually too high for the formation of stable chemical reactions, but the temperature also causes a shock wave to form. At the leading edge of the shock wave the temperatures are lower, so chemical reactions are initiated with the oxygen (and nitrogen) and the fuel molecules, energy is released, and a flame is initiated which will continue to grow if the shock wave has exceeded the threshhold needed to get a self-sustaining chemical reaction going.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri'"></span></span></p><p>--Meanwhile, ions are continuously created by the collisions, and are continuously lost as well as they capture free electrons. When an electron is captured, the excess energy is given off in the form of light of very specific wavelengths (colors) determined by the chemical constituents (oxygen, nitrogen, OH, and the various hydrocarbon segments) and the laws of atomic physics. That is, there aren't "hot ultraviolet" vs. "cool blue" sparks.</p><p></p><p>--A minimum energy of ~0.5 mJ from the magneto is required to create a shock wave of sufficient magnitude to cause enough heat to be released by oxidation of the fuel to keep the reaction going. </p><p></p><p>--However, although only ~0.5 mJ is needed, this is a case of more being better. The initial flame created is fragile and can be extinguished by the turbulence in the combustion chamber. The more electrical energy that is dumped, the greater the shock wave channel, and the more robust the initial flame. </p><p></p><p>If your ignition system is producing a spark in the air that seems weak, it <em>is</em> weak. It's not because your particular type of ignition system is producing an "ultraviolet" spark, it's because it isn't depositing as much energy into the ionized channel as some other type of ignition system. The color of the spark is determined by the chemical species present. In the case of a simple test across a spark plug in your garage, those chemicals are almost entirely oxygen and nitrogen (the 'click' you hear is the shock wave). They're the same independent of the ignition source. However, while the color is the same, the brightness is proportional to the total energy produced by your spark system. Brighter is better. No, let me modify that. Brighter is a lot better.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Magnetoman, post: 42482, member: 2806"] I noticed this thread a few days ago but have restrained myself from commenting. As you might expect given the strong demands for greater fuel economy and lower emissions, the properties of spark ignition have been intensively studied, and all aspects are quite well understood. Unfortunately, they are not well understood by most magazine writers and web sites, so much misinformation circulates. Spark ignition has a lot of aspects to it, and so any accurate description of it must be fairly complicated and technical. However, in what follows, I'm going to simplify (even [I]greatly[/I] simplify) the processes, and make direct connection to what a proper understanding means for ignition systems for our motorcycles. Taking something easy first: [FONT=Calibri][/FONT]What should have been said is that a magneto must produce a spark that will jump a 5mm gap (i.e. 10x the gap of a spark plug) at room pressure in order that it have sufficient voltage to jump the 0.018" (1/2 mm) gap at the ~150 psi in the combustion chamber. In other words, if you [I]don't[/I] see a spark across a plug at room pressure you definitely have a faulty magneto, but even if you do it tells you nothing about whether the magneto will start the engine. [SIZE=3][FONT=Calibri]This is nonsense. Here's a greatly simplified description of what goes on when a spark ignites ignition: --Within a few hundred microseconds or less the voltage across the plug has risen to a high enough value for things to start happening. --Free electrons in the gap between the electrodes are drawn toward the positive electrode, colliding with oxygen, nitrogen, and fuel molecules and liberating more electrons that also are attracted to the positive electodes. At the same time the positive ions that have been created by the loss of electrons are drawn toward the negative electrode, also colliding with other molecules along the way. --When the positive ions hit the negative electrode electrons are released, which travel toward the positive electrode. The motion of these electrons/ions creates an ever growing cascade. --Within a small fraction of a microsecond after all of the above starts the instantaneous current in the channel where all of this is happening has reached several hundred Amps, which is called "breakdown." --The conversion of electrical energy to kinetic energy of the molecules is very efficient, resulting in temperatures over 50,000 C in the channel. This is actually too high for the formation of stable chemical reactions, but the temperature also causes a shock wave to form. At the leading edge of the shock wave the temperatures are lower, so chemical reactions are initiated with the oxygen (and nitrogen) and the fuel molecules, energy is released, and a flame is initiated which will continue to grow if the shock wave has exceeded the threshhold needed to get a self-sustaining chemical reaction going. [/FONT][/SIZE] --Meanwhile, ions are continuously created by the collisions, and are continuously lost as well as they capture free electrons. When an electron is captured, the excess energy is given off in the form of light of very specific wavelengths (colors) determined by the chemical constituents (oxygen, nitrogen, OH, and the various hydrocarbon segments) and the laws of atomic physics. That is, there aren't "hot ultraviolet" vs. "cool blue" sparks. --A minimum energy of ~0.5 mJ from the magneto is required to create a shock wave of sufficient magnitude to cause enough heat to be released by oxidation of the fuel to keep the reaction going. --However, although only ~0.5 mJ is needed, this is a case of more being better. The initial flame created is fragile and can be extinguished by the turbulence in the combustion chamber. The more electrical energy that is dumped, the greater the shock wave channel, and the more robust the initial flame. If your ignition system is producing a spark in the air that seems weak, it [I]is[/I] weak. It's not because your particular type of ignition system is producing an "ultraviolet" spark, it's because it isn't depositing as much energy into the ionized channel as some other type of ignition system. The color of the spark is determined by the chemical species present. In the case of a simple test across a spark plug in your garage, those chemicals are almost entirely oxygen and nitrogen (the 'click' you hear is the shock wave). They're the same independent of the ignition source. However, while the color is the same, the brightness is proportional to the total energy produced by your spark system. Brighter is better. No, let me modify that. Brighter is a lot better. [/QUOTE]
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Tech. Advice: Series 'B' / 'C' 500cc/1000cc Bikes
Poor starting on new Amal and BTH Magneto
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