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Tech. Advice: Series 'B' / 'C' 500cc/1000cc Bikes
Engine Shock Absorber
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<blockquote data-quote="oexing" data-source="post: 116940" data-attributes="member: 1493"><p>Bill, </p><p>the clutch spline in "modern" BMWs is crap design since 1969, everybody knows that. But this has nothing to do with the ESA, and I guess you never had to change the ESA parts and reused them on the new shafts. Lubrication of the clutch splines is critical, I take MoS2 powder plus sticky chain lube there. You don´t want this to contaminate the friction material in the dry clutch. Nevertheless the BMW ESA is very effective, no rubber cushions or chains anywhere on these bikes for extra damping - and no gear tooth breakage so what else does one need to confirm the effectiveness ???</p><p> This Guzzi ESA in the photo above is another example of the designer being not quite up to scratch and only copied the poor prewar design. I heard from a friend about this when I discussed the troubles in Vincents ESAs and he told me the Guzzis get gearbox disasters from chips that break off the edges of the lobes with not matching shapes - exactly like with the original Vincent design, no secret here , everybody will know. When you look at the Guzzi photo you can see the wear marks along the edges with consequences. The present Vincent replacement design only fights this mismatch of faces but does not turn the ESA really effective. I am puzzled that it seems so hard for many to see the need for a progressive shape in ESAs to produce a real damping action. It is a bad idea to hope for springs achieving this target when the shape of lobes is poor . Really the steep gradients of the lobes should do this task . I cannot provide sketches or drawings of my BMW inspired modification. It is NOT a job for a CAD based program but instead only for an encoder based dividing head hooked onto a CNC mill and this set has to dial in about 50 positions per lobe with one mill axis only used plus its corresponding rotation on the dividing head. I made 6mm radii on one male half of the ESA so logically the matching other half was machined with a standrad 12 mm carbide end mill for 60 HRC material. I did this all manually with DRO and encoder position, would be a smooth quick operation when a such equipped CNC mill would do this. But I am not interested in production - nor is the Spares Co obviously. So possibly Conways could be an address for this. </p><p> I have no idea how the traditional Vincent lobes are produced but can prove with my first aluminium test pieces that my thinking was spot on by looking at the bearing blue marks. Guzzi still struggles with their poorly matching shapes , don´t know about the "new" Vincent ESA. </p><p> As I see it, there are two aspects with ESAs: Do you just want to protect gear teeth from breakages or pittings by hard shocks - or do you want to cushion the power pulses between strokes when going very slow in high gear ??? In first case a little bit of rubber in an ESA would do - or no ESA at all in a chain drive bikes. Chains like tooth belts should do OK without ESA. When wanting to smooth out power pulses and kangaroo drive character you´d need a wider range ESA but with progressive lobes to be effective. So yes, two requirements you could choose from and for racing I´d choose NO ESA at all, no troubles with Vincents I guess. </p><p> Modern BMWs unreliable, not my topic and too unspecified, and possibly written by an USA magazine, I ´don´t care. But regarding ESAs , the Vincent design is in no way recommended in comparison to the BMW type - and this is based on millions of bikes produced. See my photo above of the Kawa 1300 ESA in the output shaft or elsewhere , I guess in other industries used as well.</p><p></p><p> Vic</p><p>[ATTACH=full]32481[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>pre-1969 BMW gear shafts, twin on top, 250 below, coarse clutch splines !!</p><p>[ATTACH=full]32482[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>modified Vincent ESA:</p><p>[ATTACH=full]32483[/ATTACH]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="oexing, post: 116940, member: 1493"] Bill, the clutch spline in "modern" BMWs is crap design since 1969, everybody knows that. But this has nothing to do with the ESA, and I guess you never had to change the ESA parts and reused them on the new shafts. Lubrication of the clutch splines is critical, I take MoS2 powder plus sticky chain lube there. You don´t want this to contaminate the friction material in the dry clutch. Nevertheless the BMW ESA is very effective, no rubber cushions or chains anywhere on these bikes for extra damping - and no gear tooth breakage so what else does one need to confirm the effectiveness ??? This Guzzi ESA in the photo above is another example of the designer being not quite up to scratch and only copied the poor prewar design. I heard from a friend about this when I discussed the troubles in Vincents ESAs and he told me the Guzzis get gearbox disasters from chips that break off the edges of the lobes with not matching shapes - exactly like with the original Vincent design, no secret here , everybody will know. When you look at the Guzzi photo you can see the wear marks along the edges with consequences. The present Vincent replacement design only fights this mismatch of faces but does not turn the ESA really effective. I am puzzled that it seems so hard for many to see the need for a progressive shape in ESAs to produce a real damping action. It is a bad idea to hope for springs achieving this target when the shape of lobes is poor . Really the steep gradients of the lobes should do this task . I cannot provide sketches or drawings of my BMW inspired modification. It is NOT a job for a CAD based program but instead only for an encoder based dividing head hooked onto a CNC mill and this set has to dial in about 50 positions per lobe with one mill axis only used plus its corresponding rotation on the dividing head. I made 6mm radii on one male half of the ESA so logically the matching other half was machined with a standrad 12 mm carbide end mill for 60 HRC material. I did this all manually with DRO and encoder position, would be a smooth quick operation when a such equipped CNC mill would do this. But I am not interested in production - nor is the Spares Co obviously. So possibly Conways could be an address for this. I have no idea how the traditional Vincent lobes are produced but can prove with my first aluminium test pieces that my thinking was spot on by looking at the bearing blue marks. Guzzi still struggles with their poorly matching shapes , don´t know about the "new" Vincent ESA. As I see it, there are two aspects with ESAs: Do you just want to protect gear teeth from breakages or pittings by hard shocks - or do you want to cushion the power pulses between strokes when going very slow in high gear ??? In first case a little bit of rubber in an ESA would do - or no ESA at all in a chain drive bikes. Chains like tooth belts should do OK without ESA. When wanting to smooth out power pulses and kangaroo drive character you´d need a wider range ESA but with progressive lobes to be effective. So yes, two requirements you could choose from and for racing I´d choose NO ESA at all, no troubles with Vincents I guess. Modern BMWs unreliable, not my topic and too unspecified, and possibly written by an USA magazine, I ´don´t care. But regarding ESAs , the Vincent design is in no way recommended in comparison to the BMW type - and this is based on millions of bikes produced. See my photo above of the Kawa 1300 ESA in the output shaft or elsewhere , I guess in other industries used as well. Vic [ATTACH type="full"]32481[/ATTACH] pre-1969 BMW gear shafts, twin on top, 250 below, coarse clutch splines !! [ATTACH type="full"]32482[/ATTACH] modified Vincent ESA: [ATTACH type="full"]32483[/ATTACH] [/QUOTE]
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Tech. Advice: Series 'B' / 'C' 500cc/1000cc Bikes
Engine Shock Absorber
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