ET: Engine (Twin) Equal lift at 4 degrees

youngjohn

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What's the best way to measure or check equal lift of the valves/rockers on the rear cylinder of a twin with the engine in the frame? I've used this technique before with Nortons but they are pretty easy as the valves are easily accessible.

Just struggling to work out where to put and how to rig up a dial gauge as access is somewhat limited. Any info on special tools, tips or techniques much appreciated.
 

davidd

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Here is a photo of what I use on an engine.

Dial Indicators.GIF


I am reading of the valves themselves, but if you look at the intake I have a rusty piece of bar stock on the right rear cylinder stud. I would slip the dial indicator in the hole and there is a threaded lock hole on the side you can't see. The thumb screws can screw in and hold the dial indicator.

I almost always do this with the engine out. You can do it in the frame, but the angles on the bar stock have to be a little different because the head lug will be in place. There is usually enough thread poking out of the top of the head lug to hold the metal bar. You want the bar to be reasonably strong so the indicator won't bounce around as you are measuring.

I think what happened here is that I intended to read off the rocker adjuster nut. I then realized that I had Neal Videan adjusters installed which are difficult to indicate on because they are an Allen rather than a flat bolt. I got out the valve cap cups to hold the dial indicators on the valve stem.

David
 

Martyn Goodwin

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The following is taken from OVR, June 2017.

Frequently you cannot rely on the pinion marking when setting up the valve timing on a Vincent. The only accurate way is to actually measure what is going on. And this can be a bit of a chore if done in the conventional manner – that is by taking the measurement off the top of the valve stems.

The issues encountered are the need to get to the top of the valve stems to mount your indicator gauges; on both singles and twins this requires the removal of the Upper Frame Member/Oil tank. Having done so then as you rotate the crankshaft you are then fighting against the valve spring pressures that seem to always be pushing the crank just past the point where you actually want it. In all it can be a time consuming and frustrating experience.

Of course this work requires removal of the timing case cover as the valve timing is set by the relative position of the cam pinion (2 of them for a twin) and the adjustable half time pinion. Another issue is that the cam pinions themselves prevent access to the cam lobes, so you cannot easily see what is going on. Here is one solution – I’m sure it been done before though I have not seen it documented anywhere. All you need do is remove the fuel tank, the spark plug, the pushrods and the timing side cover.

Required is a pair of 1/4” diameter Pushrod Replacement Rods, each around 10 inches long – these are simple to make. One end is gently rounded so that it can sit securely in the pushrod cup on the end of the camshaft followers ET29, the other end is fitted with a brass sleeve so that the shaft of the dial indicator is located securely.


Here is the raw material for a pair of homemade Pushrod Replacement Rods, purchased on eBay for less than A$10.
upload_2017-8-15_9-31-3.png


below is a finished pair of the Rods.
upload_2017-8-15_9-31-32.png


I made my own from ¼” OD stainless steel rod with a short length of ¼” ID brass tube fitted over one end, forming a cup to locate the probe of a dial gauge. As it is an interference fit, I heated the brass tube (to get it to expand) then carefully pressed it onto the rod. Once cooled it was firmly secure.

This is close up of the (almost) rounded ends to engage in the cam follower cups
upload_2017-8-15_9-32-4.png


Below, the opposite end of the rod with a brass ‘cup’ to locate the end of the dial gauge
upload_2017-8-15_9-32-29.png


In use, you remove the tappet adjusters ET27 and the pushrods ET43 then insert the Pushrod Replacement Rod through the tappet adjustor hole in each of the rocker ET25, making sure that the rounded end is located in the pushrod cup on the end of the camshaft followers. Use magnetic dial gauge holders, locked onto the face of the UFM, to mount a pair of dial gauges with their business ends sitting in the brass cups of your rods.

For a twin you will need 4 pushrod replacement rods and 4 dial gauges, but only a pair of each for a single.

As you rotate the crankshaft the indicator gauges will show the lift of each camshaft follower

The actual amount of valve or more correctly in this instance, cam follower lift is not important. What is important is the comparative lift of the inlet and exhaust.

For almost every road going Vincent camshaft I have encountered the sweet spot for camshaft timing is to have equal lift of the inlet and exhaust at a point 4 degrees BTDC on the exhaust stroke.

So with the half time pinion key E81 removed, set the crankshaft to 4 degrees BTDC and secure it in that position. Now rotate the large idler ET50/1 while watching your TWO indicator gauges. The first thing to do is have the camshaft in the position where BOTH valves would be fully closed and at that point set both of your indicator gauges to zero. Now rotate the large idler to the point where BOTH of your indicator gauges are showing equal lift. Keeping all steady, rotate the half time pinion on the drive shaft (ET17/1) till you find the position where the keyways in the pinion and the drive shaft are in alignment then fit E81[1] the half time pinion key. Job done!

If you are using mechanical dial gauges it can be a tad tricky as each gauge will move in an opposite direction – that is one goes clockwise and the other anti-clock wise, BUT if you use digital readout style gauges it’s a doddle.

Now you've accurately timed the cams without the use of timing marks. If you've followed the above procedures, your timing will be far more precise than 90% of the Vincent motors still in existence.


[1] The fit of the E81 key way is quite important, as all too often the fit is a bit loose allowing the pinion to move, chattering back and forth on the mainshaft, it sounds not unlike a big end gone. Get a new E81 and lap it on your oilstone ensuring it is a tight fit.
 

Cyborg

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Removed the pushrods and slid in some longer bits. Took a bit of fiddling to arrange the magnetic bases for the dial gauges. At Robert's recommendation, I used digital gauges, so I wouldn't hurt my brain trying to track the revolutions of two analogue gauges spinning in opposite directions.

Equal Lift.jpg
 

greg brillus

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In the absence of dial indicators and/or if your bike is in an assembled state with the upper frame in place, you can do the following....... One at a time, set up each lobe, follower, pushrod and adjuster and just lightly nip up the adjuster so you can still rotate the cam on its own. Spin the cam so that.......with the cam just opening the inlet valve, you mark the cam pinion against a corresponding mark on the crank case immediately above the pinion gear. Then do the same but with the cam rotated the other way so that you create another mark with the exhaust valve just closing (Just rotate the cam backward until you feel it trying to lift the exhaust valve) and again put a mark on the crankcase. If you split these two marks, then you will have the cam positioned at about equal lift. I know some will say that some cams have quietening ramps an so on, but it will still work pretty close to the mark. I've done this before and it worked fine. Cheers.........Greg.
 

vibrac

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Dial guages on the heads make me go cross eyed I have used normal Vernier depth guage after getting fully closed valves to read the same
On a comet I set equal opening first then clamp the cam rotate the main shaft next and lastly find the half time pinion keyway
But then I do a lot of things backwards
 

passenger0_0

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and get it +/-2 degree:rolleyes:
What's a few degrees between friends anyway? While factory timing figures are simply what the manufacturer found to work 'best' with the engine when new, much has changed including fuel, exhaust etc. .... so live and let live I say.

For what it's worth, by experimentation on many engines, I've always found that advancing the cam timing so that you've got no less than 0.030" piston to valve clearance works well with any cam profile for power at higher engine speeds while retarding the cam makes it pull well from low rpm. Just like ignition timing this is simply another tuning parameter rather than rigid dogma.
 
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