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Tech. Advice: Series 'B' / 'C' 500cc/1000cc Bikes
Trevor Southwell re brakes
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<blockquote data-quote="davidd" data-source="post: 177691" data-attributes="member: 1177"><p>I would guess that moving the pivots would simply allow the linings to stay thicker as you arc the linings near the pivot. Carleton Palmer had this problem where he found that after he arced his linings most of the thickness near the pivot was gone, meaning that the linings looked "worn". I did not have this problem, so I assumed there was some variation due to the manufacturing tolerances. I do not know if the difference in the pivot position would affect the performance of the brake in terms of the difference in the shoe geometry. In general, I have assumed that the pivot position only made a difference in replacement and maintenance rather than performance.</p><p></p><p>The Vincent shoes have "dips" to create a 90-degree arc of shoe lining to make contact with the drum. Theoretically, these contact angles determine the performance of the brake. Theoretically, they make the performance better, but considering how poorly the brakes function, I can understand why experimenting is appealing. </p><p></p><p>The "extended lining" lads seem to fall into two camps. Some love it and have been using extended linings for years. Some, who tried it, like Carleton Palmer said the brakes became unresponsive and sluggish. The Ferodo engineers are in the latter camp. They say that as the lining is extended to the pivots and cams you end up using the lining in the least useful place. That place is where there is the least amount of force of the shoe on the drum. The highest force of the shoe on the drum is close to the center of the lining and the force tapers off to zero as you near the pivots or the cam. </p><p></p><p>They also mention that the extended linings near the cam work with so little force on the drum that you get a "wooden" feeling when you first engage the linings. This means you have to thin the lining near the cam so the extended lining does not touch the drum first and prevent that part of the lining in the center of the shoe from touching first. One Vincent owner reported that he had to slack off his cable adjustment so much that he felt the hand lever had to move too close to the handlebar before the serious braking started. </p><p></p><p>I think the group that likes the extended linings is happy grinding the linings to make the brakes perform the way they want them to perform. This is how most racers do their shoes, by getting the whole shoe lined and then adjusting the lining by grinding.</p><p></p><p>I think Trevor's greatest contribution to the discussion of Vincent brakes was to demonstrate that the brake shoes were not designed well enough to perform properly. We have seen lots of mods through the decades. The shoes are too weak, the H48 is too soft, the brake cables are too flexible, the balance beam mount is too flexible, the brake plates are too flexible, and the front forks seize when the front brake is applied. Other than that, they are pretty good.</p><p></p><p>David</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="davidd, post: 177691, member: 1177"] I would guess that moving the pivots would simply allow the linings to stay thicker as you arc the linings near the pivot. Carleton Palmer had this problem where he found that after he arced his linings most of the thickness near the pivot was gone, meaning that the linings looked "worn". I did not have this problem, so I assumed there was some variation due to the manufacturing tolerances. I do not know if the difference in the pivot position would affect the performance of the brake in terms of the difference in the shoe geometry. In general, I have assumed that the pivot position only made a difference in replacement and maintenance rather than performance. The Vincent shoes have "dips" to create a 90-degree arc of shoe lining to make contact with the drum. Theoretically, these contact angles determine the performance of the brake. Theoretically, they make the performance better, but considering how poorly the brakes function, I can understand why experimenting is appealing. The "extended lining" lads seem to fall into two camps. Some love it and have been using extended linings for years. Some, who tried it, like Carleton Palmer said the brakes became unresponsive and sluggish. The Ferodo engineers are in the latter camp. They say that as the lining is extended to the pivots and cams you end up using the lining in the least useful place. That place is where there is the least amount of force of the shoe on the drum. The highest force of the shoe on the drum is close to the center of the lining and the force tapers off to zero as you near the pivots or the cam. They also mention that the extended linings near the cam work with so little force on the drum that you get a "wooden" feeling when you first engage the linings. This means you have to thin the lining near the cam so the extended lining does not touch the drum first and prevent that part of the lining in the center of the shoe from touching first. One Vincent owner reported that he had to slack off his cable adjustment so much that he felt the hand lever had to move too close to the handlebar before the serious braking started. I think the group that likes the extended linings is happy grinding the linings to make the brakes perform the way they want them to perform. This is how most racers do their shoes, by getting the whole shoe lined and then adjusting the lining by grinding. I think Trevor's greatest contribution to the discussion of Vincent brakes was to demonstrate that the brake shoes were not designed well enough to perform properly. We have seen lots of mods through the decades. The shoes are too weak, the H48 is too soft, the brake cables are too flexible, the balance beam mount is too flexible, the brake plates are too flexible, and the front forks seize when the front brake is applied. Other than that, they are pretty good. David [/QUOTE]
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Tech. Advice: Series 'B' / 'C' 500cc/1000cc Bikes
Trevor Southwell re brakes
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