V 3 clutch plates
- Thread starter vincenttwin
- Start date
Oh, its for the friction plates too, in fact the oil clutch was developed to cure the problems with glazed/overheated linings on dry clutches. The oil acts as coolant.
Providing lubrication for the lateral sliding of the plates on the splined hub is a secondary benefit.
Ask an old cat skinner about dry clutch Cats vs wet, both in the steering clutches and the main. The upgrade to a wet clutch gave a clutch that could be slipped or engaged under exteme load and not burn up the friction plates. Here Im referring to a large Caterpillar like a D8 or D 9 breaking out an old growth fir stump.
First Cat switched the main clutch over to oil then later models came with everything running in oil. Other manufacturers such as IH or Allis Challmers eventually did the same.
In the world of heavy equipment, the dry clutch was obsolete very early on and it was all about the friction plates.
Glen
Providing lubrication for the lateral sliding of the plates on the splined hub is a secondary benefit.
Ask an old cat skinner about dry clutch Cats vs wet, both in the steering clutches and the main. The upgrade to a wet clutch gave a clutch that could be slipped or engaged under exteme load and not burn up the friction plates. Here Im referring to a large Caterpillar like a D8 or D 9 breaking out an old growth fir stump.
First Cat switched the main clutch over to oil then later models came with everything running in oil. Other manufacturers such as IH or Allis Challmers eventually did the same.
In the world of heavy equipment, the dry clutch was obsolete very early on and it was all about the friction plates.
Glen
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So now explain, why a twin clutch slips when it gets oil in it.
)
Thats pretty easy, the lining is not run in oil type, there is a difference! A sintered bronze clutch will not work with oil on it either, it is a dry only set up.
Here is some info on oil clutches taken directly from the Barnett site under "clutch tips":
"The main purpose of oils in a "wet" clutch application (as far as the clutch pack itself is concerned) is to act as a coolant. Oil flowing through the clutch plates help to keep the plates cooler, resulting in smoother clutch action and longer life"
Glen
Here is some info on oil clutches taken directly from the Barnett site under "clutch tips":
"The main purpose of oils in a "wet" clutch application (as far as the clutch pack itself is concerned) is to act as a coolant. Oil flowing through the clutch plates help to keep the plates cooler, resulting in smoother clutch action and longer life"
Glen
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Howdy Chaps,
Sintered bronze is indifferent to running dry or in oil as a clutch material in light applications like ours. My first experience with it was here with Dr. Charles Qua's lovely clutch conversion for Indian Fours - so badly in need of attention in this area it made the few wayward moments with a stock Vin clutch pale by comparison. A clutch in this configuration runs in the engine sump with 4.5 quarts of engine oil spending any time at rest with the bottom perimeter of the clutch soaking in oil. On the other hand, his adaptation for Indian Chiefs runs in only enough lubricant to bath the bottom perimeter of the clutch chain wheel much like ours and depending on whether one has separated their primary from the transmission case this lubricant can be anything from ATF to 30 wt engine oil. Neither condition dictates their performance envelope to any degree, it's all in finding the right pressure plate setting for least clamping force without undue slippage.
The moment one fires up their engine - especially one turning the clutch at crankshaft speed like a four - minimal lubrication/no cooling benefits realized as it is centrifuged off in short order. If given a choice for the possible leaks to be incurred, I'll take a dry V2 sintered bronze over a V3 fibre needing oil as, besides being a plug-and-play install initially no drilling inner primaries or attempting to hold onto oil as it's already somewhat of a challenge with our old beasts.
Ironically, most HD shovelheads run fibre clutches which technically need to run semi dry though they vent the engine cases into the primary. That's not the problem, but, just let an old shovel wet sump over a winter and most of it ends up in the primary soaking the clutch plates in standing oil to a degree they are not happy unless the clutch disassembled and the plates soaked in a solvent like Brake Kleen or mineral spirits.
Sintered bronze is indifferent to running dry or in oil as a clutch material in light applications like ours. My first experience with it was here with Dr. Charles Qua's lovely clutch conversion for Indian Fours - so badly in need of attention in this area it made the few wayward moments with a stock Vin clutch pale by comparison. A clutch in this configuration runs in the engine sump with 4.5 quarts of engine oil spending any time at rest with the bottom perimeter of the clutch soaking in oil. On the other hand, his adaptation for Indian Chiefs runs in only enough lubricant to bath the bottom perimeter of the clutch chain wheel much like ours and depending on whether one has separated their primary from the transmission case this lubricant can be anything from ATF to 30 wt engine oil. Neither condition dictates their performance envelope to any degree, it's all in finding the right pressure plate setting for least clamping force without undue slippage.
The moment one fires up their engine - especially one turning the clutch at crankshaft speed like a four - minimal lubrication/no cooling benefits realized as it is centrifuged off in short order. If given a choice for the possible leaks to be incurred, I'll take a dry V2 sintered bronze over a V3 fibre needing oil as, besides being a plug-and-play install initially no drilling inner primaries or attempting to hold onto oil as it's already somewhat of a challenge with our old beasts.
Ironically, most HD shovelheads run fibre clutches which technically need to run semi dry though they vent the engine cases into the primary. That's not the problem, but, just let an old shovel wet sump over a winter and most of it ends up in the primary soaking the clutch plates in standing oil to a degree they are not happy unless the clutch disassembled and the plates soaked in a solvent like Brake Kleen or mineral spirits.
The thing is V3 clutches do not come with bronze plates so it is irrelevant. I have supplied the kawasaki part number so hopefully peter has been able to get his new plates.
mark
mark
I sure dont mind learning about Indian cluches, v2 v3, whatever, its all closely related.
Peter, my experience with the sintered bronze v2 plates has been different from yours. It was suggested to me that it could run in atf as a solution to the grabbing problem described earlier. With atf on the plates and the springs soaked up the bike would barely make it down the driveway, slippage was so great!
I then washed the atf offf the plates via parts washer and dried them. On reinstall there was now enough clutch to get out on the road, but still slippage.
Out with the plates again and this time they were scrubbed with laquer thinner which restored holding power, but the grabbing problem returned right on cue at about 500 miles.
Another Vincent owner I chatted with at that time had the identical grabbing problem with his dry bronze v2. It is fairly common. One suggested remedy was to use a heavier pressure plate. I dont see that helping as the problem is the black gunk that comes out of the plates. The other vincent owner solved the problem by switching to a wet v3. My clutch problem went away by simply changing to wet Barnett Kevlar plates in the v2.
Glen
Peter, my experience with the sintered bronze v2 plates has been different from yours. It was suggested to me that it could run in atf as a solution to the grabbing problem described earlier. With atf on the plates and the springs soaked up the bike would barely make it down the driveway, slippage was so great!
I then washed the atf offf the plates via parts washer and dried them. On reinstall there was now enough clutch to get out on the road, but still slippage.
Out with the plates again and this time they were scrubbed with laquer thinner which restored holding power, but the grabbing problem returned right on cue at about 500 miles.
Another Vincent owner I chatted with at that time had the identical grabbing problem with his dry bronze v2. It is fairly common. One suggested remedy was to use a heavier pressure plate. I dont see that helping as the problem is the black gunk that comes out of the plates. The other vincent owner solved the problem by switching to a wet v3. My clutch problem went away by simply changing to wet Barnett Kevlar plates in the v2.
Glen
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D
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On my V3 I have tried various oils, "dimpled" steel plates and although it works OK most of the time, I can't get it to work effectively when it gets hot in heavy traffic. Talk about bad noise, last time I heard a similar dramatic noise was when my big ends packed up on my A10! I have fitted it as per instructions with "oil holes" in the case and bearings etc appear to be in tolerance. My observations are the oil in the clutch cover appears to be dirty and the clutch works easier if I clean it annually. I think the problems may be aggravated by the limited oil getting to the clutch. Perhaps it would function better if the clutch was completely open to the primary oil as it would assist cooling and change of oil to the clutch? When the engine gets really hot, does the clutch just runs out of lift? Keith
Keith, insufficient lift can be a problem. As things heat up, The cases and the clutch pack expand more than the steel push rod. This expansion creates extra slack at the lever.
With my v2 I have it set so that there is no cable slack when cold. In fact the clutch will slip in fourth if pushed hard, but only for the first five minutes of riding. After about five minutes a little slack shows up and the clutch holds firm.
This slack increases if things get really hot.There is just enough lift for city stop/start riding.
Fitting a dural clutch push rod with hardened ends is a good idea for v2 or v3 cltuches. The dural pushrod expands with the cases so the cable slack stays fairly constant.
Its on my list.
On edit: I see thst the club sells an adjuster Et 27/2ss which is for multiplate clutches. According to the info given, it will provide an extra 10 to 15 thou of lift. This along with the dural pushrod should provide plenty of lift.
Glen
With my v2 I have it set so that there is no cable slack when cold. In fact the clutch will slip in fourth if pushed hard, but only for the first five minutes of riding. After about five minutes a little slack shows up and the clutch holds firm.
This slack increases if things get really hot.There is just enough lift for city stop/start riding.
Fitting a dural clutch push rod with hardened ends is a good idea for v2 or v3 cltuches. The dural pushrod expands with the cases so the cable slack stays fairly constant.
Its on my list.
On edit: I see thst the club sells an adjuster Et 27/2ss which is for multiplate clutches. According to the info given, it will provide an extra 10 to 15 thou of lift. This along with the dural pushrod should provide plenty of lift.
Glen
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If you are going to use auto trans fluid in clutch/ primary drive, you should use dexron fluid as it is designed to be used in "slipping clutch"units, unlike the old a t f which is intended for "lock-up" clutches.