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E: Engine Twin oil pump fitting


SteveO

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
After an hour fiddling in the garage, here's the culprit and it's all down to me. I've caught the edge of the hole putting the OP36 in and dented the sleeve. I've tried to take it out with wet & dry and a small jeweller's round file, but the plunger still jams. IMG_20191118_143504.jpgIMG_20191118_143509.jpg
In the other pictures the plunger has been inserted "back to front" to show that it fits. If you look carefully in the last one you can see the groove on the plunger foulling the dented in portion around the hole.
IMG_20191118_143555.jpgIMG_20191118_143633.jpg
 

SteveO

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
It looks really bad in the photos, but it's not as noticeable in real life which is why it took a while to find it. The score caused by the bearing race appears to have no effect and the sleeve isn't bent, I've checked it with a straight edge all round. I think, to be on the safe side, I'm going to have to replace the pump. So now I have two problems; grinding down the bearing race and replacing the pump. This will mean another trip to Kettering, as I think it would make sense to take the case to ensure a push fit with the replacement.
 

Bill Thomas

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VOC Member
I can't see why, You have found the trouble, A bigger hole won't do any harm,
Make sure OP36 is OK.

You still need to reamer the cases out ?.
 
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SteveO

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I don't think making the hole bigger would be wise Bill? This might allow the sleeve to move relative to the OP36 as the plunger operates. I think the hole would then wear and continue to allow more movement in the sleeve until it could turn and block the feed holes which would be catastrophic. What do ther people think?
I'm not sure I need the reamer now, but I need to grind the bearing first anyway, as otherwise it will catch the reamer if I do need it.
 

Glenliman

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I had some difficulty fitting the oil pump on the 1360 motor.
John McDougall fitted dozens of them but still gave me a forewarning " if it goes badly just stop and go watch TV for the rest of the day. Try again the next day"
I nearly had to turn the TV set on.
These were new Molnar cases. The oil pump housing bore looked like a mirror, as did all of the machined surfaces on those cases.
It measured exactly correct for a very slight interference fit when cold.
With cases heated and oil pump sleeve cold, the sleeve went in most of the way quite nicely then jammed hard.
I tried to remove it but by now the heat from the case had gone into the oil pump sleeve. It was a proper gong show getting the sleeve out.
The problem was that the main bearing outer race was protruding about 5 thou into the oil pump bore space in one spot. You likely wouldnt encounter this problem with original cases.
Had I first used David's method or Vincent Speet's method of checking with a reamer or slightly undersized piece of round stock, the problem would have been avoided.
After using a Dremel to remove a tiny bit of material from the main bearing race, I made a 1 thou under piece then used it with some grinding paste to open the bore just a little.
This was after going back to all five Vincent books to reread the bit on fitting the oil pump.
At least one publication ( Richardson?)
recommended a " light push fit when cold"
I removed enough aluminium from the case so that the sleeve would slide about half way in when cold.
When heated, the cold sleeve now went in easily, though still best to work quickly and get the position right asap.
The bike does wet sump pretty quickly and I wonder if this is due to the relatively loose fit made with the sleeve.
I did read that all new Maughans 2 start pumps like to wet sump, so decided to live with it rather than repeat with another new pump and hope for a different outcome.
Instead I made up a manual oil valve that is operated by the ignition key.
The end result is good, I can leave the bike all winter, turn the oil on in the Spring and go. Best of all, no oil on the floor!


Glen
 
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Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Just thinking out loud, If it was too hard to grind the bearing, I wonder about grinding a groove where the
Damage is, Most wet sumping only happens over winter ?.
 

Glenliman

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VOC Member
It was easy to grind the bearing once I realized it was interfering. Because of the angle of the oil pump housing bore, the interference was just at one point and at an angle, so only a tiny amount of material had to be removed from the outer race at one spot. It took perhaps 10 seconds or so of grinding with the Dremel.

Glen
 

SteveO

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Thanks for all this information guys. Bill, thanks, I was overthinking it again. I'll try what you suggest, nothing to lose! But I will make sure the plunger moves easily when the whole caboodle is installed, before fitting the plug!
So far it's only taken about a month to get the mains and oil pump in! I wonder what I'm going to find next...
 
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Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
When it's built. Prime both oil pipes. And fill oil filter via the alloy bolt on the timing case.
I check oil is coming back to oil tank every time I go out.
 

Robert Watson

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Just used this little gem to start up a new engine. Oil took several minutes (as usual) to circulate through the whole engine and fill all the nooks and crannies, and then we were good to go.

See Start up Checklist post #10
Never mind rollers, what you need for oiling up before a start up is this piece of kit!

20191025_202404.jpg


Quote Re
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I wonder what happens when the outer race walks in the case so any relieve grinding will be no help later. Also I´d fit the pump sleeve exclusively with no force push fit so you can align that hole with the activating screw in situ. Any forced fitting will possibly cause some distortion and you cannot tell if it is distortion or press fit. A light push fit will be no factor at all for wet sumping or loss of oil pressure as no real pressure will be produced in an all roller engine. For wet sumping a cold engine will restore same minimal play like you achieved by lapping in the bronce sleeve and 5 micron diamond paste with oil. No real risk of remaining paste as most faces are covered by components when fitted. The final lapping is done with pure oil so no problem when cleaned up. So that is my idea about your troubles.

Vic
 

ClassicBiker

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VOC Member
Shotgun barrels receive dents frequently when carelessly handled. Gunsmith relieve the dent using a dent raiser. It is essentially an expanding mandrel that is placed below the dent and the gunsmith carefully expands it either through mechanical or hydraulic pressure, being careful not to cause a bulge. As screw pressure pushed it in, I don't think to much effort would be required to push it out. I would make a backer from a block of steel with a suitable size hole to prevent a bulge. An expanding mandrel along the lines of used on lathes or even progressively larger round stock with tapered end to initially slide under the dent should raise it.
Just a thought.
Steven
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Steve there is so much on a Vincent that is tricky, If you are not sure, Please ask.
That's what the Forum is for.
Cheers Bill.
 

Sakura

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Can there be any other bike engine that requires such care and selective assembly? I take my hat off to all those long term owners and engine repairers for their patience in keeping the marque alive.
 

Glenliman

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I wonder what happens when the outer race walks in the case so any relieve grinding will be no help later. Also I´d fit the pump sleeve exclusively with no force push fit so you can align that hole with the activating screw in situ. Any forced fitting will possibly cause some distortion and you cannot tell if it is distortion or press fit. A light push fit will be no factor at all for wet sumping or loss of oil pressure as no real pressure will be produced in an all roller engine. For wet sumping a cold engine will restore same minimal play like you achieved by lapping in the bronce sleeve and 5 micron diamond paste with oil. No real risk of remaining paste as most faces are covered by components when fitted. The final lapping is done with pure oil so no problem when cleaned up. So that is my idea about your troubles.

Vic
It can't walk in or out, it's the timing side bearing, which is up against a shoulder, that prevents outward movement.
The problem was that the shoulder was about 5 thou deeper than it should have been to allow the oil pump sleeve to pass.
With parts from various suppliers all over the world but ( hopefully) reasonably accurately done to drawings I expected there would be some alignment difficulties here and there.
Over all it wasn't that bad and it is a real sweet engine these days.

On that engine the main bearings can't move inward as they are staked in by machine set screws on the inside of the cases. The set screws also prevent rotation of the two inner bearing's outer races.

Glen
 
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vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Can there be any other bike engine that requires such care and selective assembly? I take my hat off to all those long term owners and engine repairers for their patience in keeping the marque alive.
I think any bike contemporary with the Vincent has such problems owning a Velocette, Douglas or Scott for example you will find the same problems (I know I have experience) they were built by selective assembly whose component limits were wide compared to today on machine tools tired after a world war with small work forces under financial pressure. But one advantage the Vincent has over many early post war machines is the comprehensive availability of spares, a drawings project and well recorded information system.
 

stumpy lord

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Can there be any other bike engine that requires such care and selective assembly? I take my hat off to all those long term owners and engine repairers for their patience in keeping the marque alive.
there was a few weeks ago a drawing here in the M.P.H. of a tool that enabled an owner to position an oil pump sleeve without having to use a piece of steel bar to turn the sleeve for hole alignment , and thus remove the risk of damaging the pump sleeve.
I cant be sure, but I think it was designed by Dave hill, but not sure. Hopefully somebody else will remember the article, and be able to guide you to it.
stumpy lord
 

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