• New Member Special Offer

    Join the Vincent H.R.D. Owners Club today, and get a special offer of 14 months for the price of 12 (your membership will expire on 31st December 2020)!

    There is a mass of information, including many thousands of technical articles which have been written since the Club started in 1948, which are only available to Members of the Club. Once you join, your membership of this forum will be upgraded and you'll get access to them, as well as many other features.

    To join, simply click HERE and follow the simple instructions.

    Ron and Linda Thomas - Membership Secretaries.
  • Welcome to the website of the Vincent H.R.D. Owners Club.

    Should you have any questions relating to the Vincent H.R.D. Owners Club, or Vincent H.R.D. motorcycles in general, please contact Graham Smith, Hon. Editor and Webmaster by calling 07977 001 025 or please CLICK HERE.

    You are unrecognised, and therefore, only have VERY restricted access to the many features of this website.

    If you have previously registered to use this forum, you should log in now. CLICK HERE.

    If you have never registered to use this website before, please CLICK HERE.

E: Engine Twin oil pump fitting


oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Steve,
seems you got a seizure on the sleeve by bashing it in too tight. You may be able to polish the i.d. of the sleeve at that place for the plunger to get free. As I wrote above I´d never fit a sleeve by press fit, ONLY easy push fit. The sleeve is not necessarily bent but the bore slightly tapered and too tight anyway, so better lap that sleeve in the engine bore till it will be fully home.
Oil pressure is not really concerned with a bit of a looser fit, no oil pressure in an all roller engine at all. Many Vincents are run with knackered oil pumps, no big troubles from that it seems, not looking at wet sumping of course.

Vic
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I think you will still need a straight reamer, They are not a lot of money, Tracy tools , Maybe ?.
To make sure the cases are OK.
Be very careful, They are very sharp, You don't want it to dig in, That's why I blunted mine off a nats with wet and dry paper, Used wet, It's got go in very straight !, And Gentle !,
I did mine a bit at a time, I didn't think it was good to just wind it in all the way, If it didn't need it.
Then try and find the tight spot of plunger in sleeve while it is your hand,
It will show up as a Bright spot where it's tight,
Maybe use a bit of fine wet and dry paper on a wood stick ?.
Good Luck.
If you manage to free it off, You can give a good clean before it goes back, You don't want bad stuff in there which will wear it out.
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Be careful with the threaded end of the sleeve, If you are rough with it, Turning it , The end of the sleeve could unscrew !.
 

SteveO

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Thank you both for your advice and best wishes. I only wish I had asked on here when I first realised it was tight before going ahead. Not having worked on a Vincent before it's a bit difficult to gauge what is "tight" and what is "too tight". One persons push fit may be anothers "light tap". In my defence it was hard getting the old sleeve out, so I half expected the new one to be difficult. I'll know better next time (not that there will be a next time hopefully!). I was also a bit wary of the sleeve being loose and turning blocking the holes, but of course it's held by the OP36. The end of the sleeve is loose, I will tighten and lock before trying to insert it again.
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The plunger has to be nice and free or the teeth will wear out too soon.
OP36, As Tatty and me have said, Must not be too long and bind up in the groove, When fully tight !.
The Brass end cap that screws in after the sleeve is in, Holds the sleeve tight on it's flange.
Cheers Bill.
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I think most of us have had the same trouble as you :) , That's how we learn, These Vincent's are full of tricks to catch us out, Just look at the wheel spindle nuts, Just asking for some poor sod to put a spanner on them !!!!!.
There should be a big sign, Only turn the Tommy Bar !.
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
One issue you can have when passing a 1" ream up the bore if the mains are in, the reamer can hit the edge of the outer race, and this will blunt the reamer. I've had to get up the bore with a small grinding stone and take a whisker off the bearing race..........All a complete bugger, and hindsight is a great thing after the fact. Once the hole is true and round with no burs, the sleeve should push in with the cases cold. I use a good coating of that brown loctite number 3 which is a non hardening sealant ideal for oil pump and water pump installations. I have found if the sleeve is very tight to withdraw, you are better off to use some threaded rod and make a puller that winds the sleeve out, as a slide hammer is too brutal, you can literally pull the thread out of the far end of the pump, it is only a threaded alloy plug after all. If your plunger will not easily fit to the new sleeve, then you have likely bent the sleeve. Any drastic changes to the bore of the sleeve and/or the plunger will likely result in the engine wet sumping. I have seen it done by a so called expert with the end result being that the bike would loose the entire contents of the oil tank into the crankcases in less than a week. We had to completely strip the engine and start again.........This was because the pump bore in the cases was undersized about 0.002" this on a new set of cases. Not fun to fix at all........... Good luck with it.
 

Cyborg

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I don’t want to rain on your parade, but in those first two photos you posted, it looks like the sleeve caught something on the way in. (Outer race of the small bearing?) There is a long score mark that goes from the far end of the pump up to the opening for the gear. Hard to tell from the photo, but to me that looks like it’s deep enough to cause the pump to bind,
C9CC11FF-92A5-431F-89B3-49E86B9E7F4A.jpeg
 
Last edited:

Cyborg

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Ps... I just looked in a box with a couple of scrap pumps that came with a pile of other bits. Both sleeves have similar score marks. I starting to think that dressing that outer race should be standard operating procedure (or at least verifying its out of the way) when it is initially installed. Installing the sleeve first would work, but you would still run the risk of the sleeve hanging up on the outer race (on future removal) if it wasn’t attended to.
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
It's generally the inner large race that hits, unless the outer one has moved and quite possible. Often the damage is done removing the old sleeve as it can get nicks on it from removing the crank and/or if something has been up the inlet port in the cases. This later one is the bad one, if the case is scored from there outward, this will cause oil to leak past the outside of the sleeve. I generally remove the high spots in the case bore and using a nice coating of non hardening sealant seems to stop any further leakage. Another spot that goes unnoticed, is the lower timing cover screw the one next rearward from the one with the locating dowel........If too long a cover screw is wound right to the bottom of this hole, it will punch through into the oil pump bore and damage the sleeve, again causing a score in the bore..........Removing and changing oil pumps can be fraught with danger i'm afraid............o_O ........
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Bit like a rear cylinder barrel stud ?, I think there is a cam follower spindle that has to be taken out first ?,
Or it binds on the bottom half of the thread ?, Makes you want to buy something simple ?.
 

litnman

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
A combination of things happened here. Yes it required a reamer to clean the bore.
The outer main bearing was replaced using one with the thinner outer race which allows
OP31 to be installed or removed without interfering with the bearing race.
 

Attachments

Cyborg

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I have one more engine to do from bare cases up and think one of the first things I will do is install the pump sleeve in the naked case half. Hopefully I’ll actually remember that when the time comes. Greg, I’m only slightly surprised you say it’s the large race that hits. Both of the ones I have are from the smaller outer race. I suppose that speaks to the rather random nature of the machining that went on in there. Last night I took one of the old pump sleeves and offered it up to the (NOS) case. The sleeve had been previously cleaned up so although I didn’t measure it I assume it is slightly undersize. Anyway.. it didn’t want to enter the case more than a about 18mm, so no slip fit. Makes me wonder what actually transpired at the factory when they installed the sleeves. Was it a select fit or did they ream the bore or turn down the sleeve? Certainly does seem to be a road laced with land mines.
Anyone know roughly how much that bore expands when the cases are heated in the oven?
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
It is nice to have a 1.00" inch reamer to check the bore. I pretty much check all the engines now, either new or original cases. The heating process is a double edged sword on account of the alloy and sleeve expanding pretty much at the same time, although on removal it definitely helps. Yes sort out the pump sleeve before anything else......... I do polish the edges of a new sleeve with a slight chamfer on the upper end to help prevent any kind of binding, with a little care and preparation the sleeve goes in ok, and so long as it is not too tight a fit, the plunger goes in and rotates with a little oil. If you de-bur most all of the edges of the brass sleeve, this should stop any nicks from scoring the bore anymore.
 

Cyborg

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
In case you have to remove substantial material in the bore and your blunt reamer is unable to free cut to size you are entitled to use a secret toolmaker´s trick for restoring the reamer to achieve an individual size. You get a piece of carbide, like a lathe tool insert or a rod of carbide and run it along the cutting edge of the reamer under an angle like in my photo below. That way you create a tiny burr along the flute and so will be cutting the bore to your liking. Be cautious with forming these burrs, you can set the reamer to oversize two or three thou with this trick. You can check with your finger nail at the reamer edge for "size" .
Vic
Thanks for sharing that. I have a set of tools for refacing and putting a new burr back on the edge of scrapers that are used for wood working, so aware of the concept. I never would have thought that could work with a reamer. Guess that’s why I was told never to turn a reamer backwards.... it sort of reinforces that rule.
Of course out of the dozens of reamers in the drawer... no 1” . Guess I could make a lap and use the time saver compound if necessary. I only see one more pump in my future, so don’t really want to buy a reamer.

Off topic, but heating the cases to remove the pump always makes me think of Manx and Inter. The original pump bodies were made of mazak which expands more than aluminum or magnesium. Heating those cases to get the pump out is not a good idea.
 
Last edited:

SteveO

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
OK, the score in the new sleeve WAS caused by the outer bearing race of the outer (smaller) main bearing. I am going to have to grind this to take the edge off. My question is have I scrapped this sleeve by forcing it in? It's a long score as you can all see from the photo and is probably the cause of the plunger binding. It doesn't actually go over any feed holes, so would it cause wet sumping? Or maybe the sleeve is so distorted now that it's unusable?
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hello Steve, Is the outer track of the outer bearing pushed right in ?
As " Litnman" said, The small outer track, There are 2 types of bearing, Some the outer track is thicker,
And you can't get the OP31 through it, Not that you often need to !,

The first bit of the far end of the sleeve is much thicker, I don't think you would dent the sleeve there ?,
Have you a " straight edge " You could line up on the outside of the sleeve, To see if it's bent,
I would not think it was.
If it was I would have a go a making it straight, Holding the far end In a tube Which is thicker and putting a nice fitting tube in the outer end, If it's scrap anyway, Anything is worth a try ??.
So I think it's down to finding a Bright Spot on the inside of the sleeve and Rubbing it with wet and dry paper.
 
Last edited:

SteveO

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Bill, yes the outer track is all the way in. It's obviously the thicker one (see above). Once again this is something I didn't know, that there was a choice of two! I do now! I rolled the sleeve on the anvil of my vice; it doesn't appear bent, but of course could be distorted in a different way, i.e. dented inside. The plunger will go in so far, about until the worm teeth start to appear in the cutout. If I reverse it, the thick end goes into the wider part easily. The problem seems to lie at the far end where the graunch is. I could try wet and dry in this end until the nose of the plunger goes in. I don't know that I'm unduly worried about wet sumping (I own Nortons after all!) and in any case isn't wet sumping endemic to some extent with a gear driven pump? I'm more concerned about losing oil pressure to the big ends, I (and my finances) can't stand another failure here!
 

SteveO

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I have one more engine to do from bare cases up and think one of the first things I will do is install the pump sleeve in the naked case half. Hopefully I’ll actually remember that when the time comes. Greg, I’m only slightly surprised you say it’s the large race that hits. Both of the ones I have are from the smaller outer race. I suppose that speaks to the rather random nature of the machining that went on in there. Last night I took one of the old pump sleeves and offered it up to the (NOS) case. The sleeve had been previously cleaned up so although I didn’t measure it I assume it is slightly undersize. Anyway.. it didn’t want to enter the case more than a about 18mm, so no slip fit. Makes me wonder what actually transpired at the factory when they installed the sleeves. Was it a select fit or did they ream the bore or turn down the sleeve? Certainly does seem to be a road laced with land mines.
Anyone know roughly how much that bore expands when the cases are heated in the oven?
Not much I reckon (relative to the sleeve anyway), the fit didn't seem to alter much when the sleeve was driven out cold on mine, but my problem lies elsewhere (see above). Apparently the coefficient of expansion of alloy and phospor bronze is pretty close, so the sleeve should fit cold. Clearly they selective fitted at the factory, turning down the sleeve would weaken it. They may have reamed out to suit, but it would have been a ticklish business, probably too awkward for production?
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
That's a strange one Steve, Have you got an old Plunger, maybe a bit worn, To give you an idea where the bind up is ?. As I said, I didn't think the far end would give trouble because the sleeve is thicker there.
What about finding a bit of bar/tube etc that is the right size of the smaller end,
If you can push that in and maybe it will show you the sleeve is bent ?,
i.e. If you look into the bigger end and bit of tube is to one side of the big hole ?, Sorry I am not good with words.
The other thing, You could unscrew the end cap of the sleeve, You said you thought it was loose ?,
To look down that end ?.
I think you are afraid to push too hard ??, In case you can't get it out ??, Or am I wrong :) .
 

Top