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C: Clutch Twin clutch . centralizing plunger.

john998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
In a drawing of the twin clutch posted on this forum it appears that the centralizing plungers C11/1 are shown in contact with the both C14 pins. Is this correct?
In my experience there is always some clearance that allows C13 a few degrees of rotation either way before any contact.
John Stainton.
 

Peter Holmes

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Can you get Torx in 2BA countersunk? it seems a tadge unlikely, but I haven't searched, Marcus, about 50 odd years ago you supplied me with 2BA Allen key screws for the clutch, but I found if you wanted to do those screws up FT the heads soon turned out so I reverted back to standard, if all the countersinks are OK in both components I have never had them loosen themselves, I know your duck tape fix very well, you used it on my Rapide a couple of years ago, it is probably still in there.
 

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Torx may be slightly better than Allan screws but the normal slots will last longer, but using an electric screw driver / torque drill the blade will slip out but a small central hole in screws, with the blade bit ground to locate in hole will make life easier. When complete get duck tape and stick it over the screws, have done this for 50 plus years, saves the machining on the inside of the cover. Part of my emergency kit is a used roll of duck tape (1/4" thick) with the center cardboard removed to the first round of sticky then placed in a vice and flat pack it, much handier to stow in a tool box.
bananaman.
Thanks Marcus, Have you got pics of this "blade bit ground to locate in hole" and of the fastener you are refering to please? also the finished install after duck tape applied?

I have never been happy with the 406 set of 9 slotted screws, plus I don't remember stripping out any allen head fasteners, but it is possible.
What i do see is too long (1.0") of 406 being supplied and compromising the install.

406ScrewPic2.jpg

CskVsStdLength.jpg
 
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Peter Holmes

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
So I think what Marcus is describing is the standard slotted countersunk screw (2BA) with a small hole/dimple drilled centrally in the slot, and then you hollow grind a screwdriver bit to fit the slot precisely, but when you are grinding the bit leave a central projection to engage with the hole/dimple in the screw, the point of this is when using an electric drill/screwdriver set to a low torque setting you can whiz the screws in without the screwdriver bit skipping out of the screw slot, I sort of get it, but as pulling the clutch apart is not exactly an everyday job I am happy to just screw up the three central screws evenly by hand to full spring compression, and the other 6 screws just spin in easily, then just nip all 9 up FT, the secondary precaution that Marcus uses is basically a home made self adhesive washer made out of Duck tape, the washer can be made up from a few pieces of Duck tape, and made to the same size as the C27, then stuck on and over the C27 and the screw heads, the theory being that if any of the screws start to loosen they can only loosen so far, probably not even half a turn, and this saves any loosened screws cutting a nice neat circular groove on the inside surface of the clutch cover. Hope that all makes sense.
 
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Marcus Bowden

VOC Hon. Overseas Representative
VOC Member
Thank you Peter my handsome, better than I explained it, but then it was a pretty regular practice when I first had the Vincent but it did save my life a few times as if the clutch started to slip it was generally after a little youthful dicing on the road.
bananaman.
 

Gary Gittleson

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I wondered if someone would ask about the screws. Yes, they're allen, not torx. I bought them sometime around 1976 and don't remember from where. But Greg Brillus says Neal Videan supplies them. I do remember hating the originals and find these much better. The allen size is quite small, so you have to handle them with care. Mainly, it's a matter of making sure the allen wrench (do the Brits call this a spanner?) is fully seated before applying torque.
 

Cyborg

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I believe the 406 screws are available from Coventry with the hex (Allen) drive under the part number V406A. I just purchased their normal slotted variety V406.
At the risk of stating the obvious, the correct screw driver helps. I went through a selection of at least 6 similarly sized screwdrivers before I found one that was a decent fit and even then it could stand a bit of dressing to improve the fit. It was an old Craftsman screwdriver and the rest were Snap-on which are supposed to be better quality. I also use a small amount of blue thread locker paste that comes in a tube. Loctite has a blue tape thread locker (lower strength) so you can undo fasteners with normal tools and no heat necessary. The paste or tape would be handy to have in the tool box.
In hindsight it might be easier to find a decent Allen wrench rather than search for a proper screwdriver.
 

Bobv07662

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I might be a relatively new Vincent owner but I've been using screwdrivers for over 60 years. What some people use as a common flat blade screwdriver is the main reason for damaged slotted screws. Get yourself a good set of hollow ground screwdrivers and call it problem solved.
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I have used the Allen type for about 30 years, Often thought I would mess the Allen up !,
But not yet, They must be Hardened ?,
As Gary said, Not a lot of hole to put the key in, But has worked up to now,
Been trying Marcus Gaffa tape across the screw heads for a while,
Would have thought the heat would mess that up , But not been in there since,
Because you can't pin punch the head, Like we used to do with the cheese head,
Not that it always worked well !.
 
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BigEd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
VOC Forum Moderator
I wondered if someone would ask about the screws. Yes, they're allen, not torx. I bought them sometime around 1976 and don't remember from where. But Greg Brillus says Neal Videan supplies them. I do remember hating the originals and find these much better. The allen size is quite small, so you have to handle them with care. Mainly, it's a matter of making sure the allen wrench (do the Brits call this a spanner?) is fully seated before applying torque.
I found some online here in the UK that were stainless steel. I don't know what grade they were but didn't seem to be as hard as the standard crosscut screws. The Allen key size is quite small but made it easy to quickly whiz in and out with an electric drill with a light torque setting and then finish tightening with the Allen key.
As Peter said. "pulling the clutch apart is not exactly an everyday job" but if you are experimenting with clutch shoe adjustment it is good to be able to get things on and of quickly. Once set the clutch doesn't need much attention.
 

john998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hello, The Allan head counter sunk use a too small key for me. In my racing days standard 2 BA cap screws where used without a clutch cover, just a guard to keep the boots clear.
Have found that slotted head stainsteel screws are less prone to backing out, perhaps due to galling under the head. This with home made stainless spring retainer. John.
 

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Anyone using a torque driver on Vincent fasteners? Slotted, Allen, Torx, Phillips, Pozi.
Common place in firearm precision maintenance.

FATTorqueDriver1.jpg

Firearms Accurizing Torque​

 
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Cyborg

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The kind offer is much appreciated.

I have ordered the new C21. Items usually arrive here within one business day from Coventry Spares. By the look of Cyborg's new one, a used one might be better, eh? Well no, if all that's wrong is a rough edge on a hole that doesn't require much precision, it'll be fine in the end.

I'll inspect the new C21 carefully and de-burr it as needed. Maybe it will even stop snowing sometime this year and I'll be able to report on the results.
How did your new C21 look? I shaved that burr off... it was more substantial that the photo indicated. After trimming it off, I checked the fit up against the C13 and it was close, but still not 100%. Turns out there are smaller burrs around the 9 smaller holes. Not a big deal, but better if the C21 and C23 are actually running true to each other, so will remove them as well.
 

Gary Gittleson

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
There was a small burr on the central hole. The smaller holes were OK. Since I have washers on six of the pins behind the plate, the central hole doesn't come in contact with C13, so it's less of an issue. The washers are there to keep the plate from rubbing on the two C5/1's. The old plate had that problem, so some time in the past I spaced the plate out with the washers. As you probably know, I'm not the first to do this.

So the new plate is nicely centralized and all looks good so far. I think the dish of the new plate is a little deeper. I didn't think to check that before assembling but I had to take up some slack on the release mechanism via the adjustment screw on the off side.
 

Cyborg

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I don’t recall any discussions about using washers in there. I haven’t run into any clearance issues in the past but will verify there is clearance before I button it together for (hopefully) the last time.
 

Robert Watson

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I have had washers in there on and off, sometimes as Gary says the back of the C21 can rub on the C5/1's. look for the witness marks on a used one. Either have to space the C21 out or grind the back and/or the top of the pins although they have very little above the circlip.
 

Cyborg

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
When Gary mentioned it, I did have a look at an old C21 and there are slight witness marks. No idea what the history is on the plate. It’s in that bin of stuff that never gets tossed. An additional joy of having grandchildren is that there is an endless supply of playdough in the house. Perfect for just such an occasion.
 

stu spalding

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The washers are fitted because the pivot bores are worn allowing the shoe to misalign to the point where the link pin C9 contacts the plate. A better dodge is to countersink the C9 hole in the shoe a little deeper and put a washer under the splitpin 69. Ideally the pin bores should be bushed back to standard using an accurate jig. I recently spent two days sorting out a pair of shoes where someone had just stuck a 5/8" drill
through the worn hole, this throws the position of the plungers out causing further problems. Cheers, Stu.
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Interesting findings there Stu, Have you found out which way the shoe pivot bores wear.......?....... I have done a few were we machine out the holes oversize and then bush it with bronze to suit new pivot pins/bolts........I have also seen ones previously done where the bushes come loose, shift sideways and this jams the shoe up so it is difficult for them to pivot freely.......Also if the pin to sleeve bore is a bit snug, again they tend to grab and limit movement.......I have often thought it would be better if a simple over sized pin was available, this would make the job far easier.........your thoughts.......?........Cheers........Greg.
 

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