Steib s501 Advice needed

[Motony]

First, let me come clean, I don't own a Vincent! but do love them. I have a few BMWs from the 1950-60s. I'm living in hopes that someone will be able to help me as my queries with The BMW club have so far been unsuccessful.
I have a Steib S501 that needs restoration.
My main concern is that the swinging arm / torsion suspension assembly is not 90 degrees to the sidecar frame vertical axis, I believe that the axle should be horizontal, that is in the same plane as the frame, and that the sidecar wheel should be plumb when the frame and body are level. Unfortunately my axle kicks up by 5-10 degrees, presumably because the torsion rubber assembly in the the housing is old. I can't find any information about replacement or known workaround alternatives. Does any one have any information? I've tried looking for information with the usual Steib parts sellers in Germany; Ulis, Myer, Bornowski et al. to no avail. If I don't get anywhere soon with UK I'll try asking for advice with these businesses as well. Also there is Salis NL that might be of help.
Any information greatly appreciated.
thanks, Tony

 

[flxible]

Hi Tony; besides the Vincent, my other m/c love is the Earles fork era BMW, of which one of mine is a TR500 rig.
I am by no means a s/c expert, but have enjoyed rebuilding/using/maintaining it for the last forty years or so.

My TR500 is a 1960 model, right near the end of the Steib factory run, before Bender took over production, and that yours is torsion suspension means your S501 is a fairly late model also.
I, too, am of the belief that the axle should be horizontal, and therefore the wheel should be perpendicular to both the chassis and to level ground.

A 5-10 degree lean equates to an approximate 2" to 4" overall lean on a 26" tire, (or 1" to 2" if from the axle) and that is significant, and I would suspect something more than a worn torsion bar bush is going on.
The wheel does not look to have that much lean in the picture, but photos are often deceiving.
For me your photo and concerns bring more questions than answers.
How did the s/c perform in use, how true is the level you are using/was plumb checked with a bob or the level/is the frame itself true and free of twists, are the wheel/tire true, etc.
Bottom line is of course how does the rig track down the road.

I use a hand sized laser when checking plumb/level with frames, it is quick and simple.
My day job is building houses, so there is already a laser in the tool box, it's about the size of a tape measure, and cost $100-$200.
I weren't a builder, I don't know that I'd run out and buy one, but perhaps you've a friend in the trades.
Just as you adjust the toe-in on the s/c, and the camber on the motorcycle, one could compensate for s/c wheel lean to some extent, but not 2" to 4".

I have used Ideal Sidecar, in Berlin, over the years for various parts, though not recently.
(ideal-seitenwagen.eu)
They are the folks who manufacture all the s/c parts, as well as the repop Steib sidecars.
I believe they also supply the various shops that sell Steib parts.
And (at least back when I was sourcing parts) they also sold the torsion bars and bushings.
The fellow I used to email with was Stefan, (an owner, I believe) and his English was probably better than mine.
Best-
George

I put a 3' straight edge through the swingarm mounts, and shimmed the frame to agree with the red laser level line; and a straight edge through the steering head, to see if the vertical red laser line reads perpendicular to the swingarm axis, (it does in this case) and the vertical red laser is tracking up the center of the frame spine as well as vertical bracketry, so showing all is pretty good in at least those two planes.

 

[Marcus Bowden]

Tony my handsome, that looks and sounds right to me I bought my first Steib in 1966 ex Peter Garish outfit from John Cooper Plympton then it was put onto my brothers Rapide and he put 13" wheels on his bike but the tyres had such a large section that if one had a blow out the sump would make contact with the road, so a 1/4" steel belly pan was welded to front plates raised 2" and a series m "B" gear linkage was fitted, even rode it slow like that from Exeter to Looe and came up Forda Vally hill at over 70 MPH much to the dismay of a get in quite a fast car. but we raced it like that at St Evel (Cornwall) and Cadwell Park riding to and from meetings. Early 80's he sold the bike with my chair firmly attached. But the tyre section had such a good effect on chain life we couldn't believe it as the tyre pressure was so low 5 to 10 p.s.i. the the absorption from the tyres saved the chain life towards 15k miles but I got another a few years later from Harry Cox when he gave me his "A"rap that John Waltham ran P.E.I in at the international in the 80's the rubber resilient mount was still good when I finally decided that as Christine said she would never ride in it I got rid of it two months ago all nicely painted in Chinese red with hood no tonne cover suit case carrier (aluminium), hydraulic braked wheel and a bucket load of fittings. £1.5 k and my first dream machine R60 1969 for £ 4.5 k.
bananaman.
my mate Tim Lister at the helm I'm working the chair as he had been using it the last year so was more use to it as I was racing the exworks Grey Flash with big port head LRO 993

 

[davidd]

Tony,

How much lean-in or lean-out, in your case, were you planning to dial in with the mounts? Are you driving on the left side of the road? I usually ran 6 degrees of lean-out to accommodate for the road camber. I never measured my 501 to see if it was square. The 501 was the worst handling, but best riding sidecar. A rigid sidecar wheel is much better for fast riding. I assume that the choice of the 501 means that you do not anticipate sliding around corners at high speed.

I suspect your frame will work fine. If you can build the sidecar without restoring it and do some testing, it might help you one way or the other, particularly if you think the torsion bar has lost its torque. But, it seems to me that it might work perfectly when you get down to attaching it to the bike and adjusting the entire rig for road camber.

David

 

[Motony]

Thanks for the prompt replies.

George, I will take a few more measurements. My son has a laser level. I'll use that to take another look. That said I am of the opinion the frame is true. I used two straight edges to check for wind and all looked good. The axle also seems to be straight. The cast swinging arm looks good as does the housing for the torsion rubber. My estimate of degrees out of plumb may be incorrect, I'll have a better idea with the laser.

Marcus, that's a great picture and I can see that these frames are strong! The image of you charging around on the racing outfit on the road on the way to a meeting also has a certain appeal!

David, I am driving on the left. I too thought bolting it to a bike would be advantageous. As George said, that really is the 'bottom line'. I need to get some brackets ordered. I will try to talk to Stefan (ideal-seitenwagen.eu)

Might take a while but I will let you know how I get on.
thanks,
Tony

 

[Hugo Myatt]

First, let me come clean, I don't own a Vincent! but do love them. I have a few BMWs from the 1950-60s. I'm living in hopes that someone will be able to help me as my queries with The BMW club have so far been unsuccessful.
I have a Steib S501 that needs restoration.
My main concern is that the swinging arm / torsion suspension assembly is not 90 degrees to the sidecar frame vertical axis, I believe that the axle should be horizontal, that is in the same plane as the frame, and that the sidecar wheel should be plumb when the frame and body are level. Unfortunately my axle kicks up by 5-10 degrees, presumably because the torsion rubber assembly in the the housing is old. I can't find any information about replacement or known workaround alternatives. Does any one have any information? I've tried looking for information with the usual Steib parts sellers in Germany; Ulis, Myer, Bornowski et al. to no avail. If I don't get anywhere soon with UK I'll try asking for advice with these businesses as well. Also there is Salis NL that might be of help.
Any information greatly appreciated.
thanks, Tony

I am a little confused as to what exactly you mean. I have two S501 sidecars, one fitted to my C Rapide. With the sidecar unloaded the sidecar swing axle rests on the rubber bump stop which means at the wheel axle end it is about 1 1/2" above the horizontal of the sidecar frame tube. This is approximate as it is difficult to measure in situ (at least, in my freezing cold garage). The other sidecar is exactly the same. Hugo.

 

[Peter Holmes]

Tony my handsome, that looks and sounds right to me I bought my first Steib in 1966 ex Peter Garish outfit from John Cooper Plympton then it was put onto my brothers Rapide and he put 13" wheels on his bike but the tyres had such a large section that if one had a blow out the sump would make contact with the road, so a 1/4" steel belly pan was welded to front plates raised 2" and a series m "B" gear linkage was fitted, even rode it slow like that from Exeter to Looe and came up Forda Vally hill at over 70 MPH much to the dismay of a get in quite a fast car. but we raced it like that at St Evel (Cornwall) and Cadwell Park riding to and from meetings. Early 80's he sold the bike with my chair firmly attached. But the tyre section had such a good effect on chain life we couldn't believe it as the tyre pressure was so low 5 to 10 p.s.i. the the absorption from the tyres saved the chain life towards 15k miles but I got another a few years later from Harry Cox when he gave me his "A"rap that John Waltham ran P.E.I in at the international in the 80's the rubber resilient mount was still good when I finally decided that as Christine said she would never ride in it I got rid of it two months ago all nicely painted in Chinese red with hood no tonne cover suit case carrier (aluminium), hydraulic braked wheel and a bucket load of fittings. £1.5 k and my first dream machine R60 1969 for £ 4.5 k.
bananaman.
my mate Tim Lister at the helm I'm working the chair as he had been using it the last year so was more use to it as I was racing the exworks Grey Flash with big port head LRO 993

View attachment 46519

That is a great photo Marcus, any emoji would not do it justice.
Thanks for posting.
Peter.

 

[Motony]

I am a little confused as to what exactly you mean. I have two S501 sidecars, one fitted to my C Rapide. With the sidecar unloaded the sidecar swing axle rests on the rubber bump stop which means at the wheel axle end it is about 1 1/2" above the horizontal of the sidecar frame tube. This is approximate as it is difficult to measure in situ (at least, in my freezing cold garage). The other sidecar is exactly the same. Hugo.

Hello Hugo, this link might enlighten you a little bit more as to what I’m trying to explain. Possibly as has been suggested above or as I thought myself, this might be an acceptable state of affairs. Tony

Video 06-01-2022, 11 25 08.mov

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[Peter Holmes]

A little off topic (as usual) but a roaring wood burning stove in a workshop, unadulterated luxury!