sparkplug indexing

[Kansas Bad Man]

Russell Wright rode the bike and gave ALL the credit to the bikes performance to his co partner. Those were the first words out of his mouth during his mike time at the huge get together in CALIFORNA. He said that he took no part in the tuning of the bike. We had a joke going on , I told him that I felt that I had a good lawsuit case against him because he inspired me to up the Vincent world record and since that time I had spent a ton of money and it as all his fault. He told the story at the Banquet, and said in a laughing way sue away Max, you cant get blood out of a turnip. I loved that man, we kept in touch for a long time. RIP my friend.

Some things that are considered a scientific fact such as 186,000 miles in one second for the speed of light, are a bit to precise to be a fact don't you think? So one has to take it with a grain salt and call it a fact. With that thought in mind , the FACT that ALL the 43 starters at the DAYTONA ran there engines with spark plugs indexed tells me that minuet readings at some time or another weather it be with a dyno or lap times is a proven advantage and far from
voodoo science.

As far as different ground positioning angels, I was told when I was 13 years old, point it toward the exhaust valve, I have never read or have I been told any different.

 

[Kansas Bad Man]

On a Vincent head like mine I have a question more pertinant than indexing the plug
Given the choice-(and with a twin plug head I have been) which is the best side to have a single plug, LH or RH? obviously the spare plug hole on a road bike is for a Royal Enfield decompressor much preferable to the mares nest of linkages roller and oil leaks in the timing chest.

The plug should find its best position on the right side. The carb points to the right side and the plug ground electrode best shrouds the center electrode for a dry plug, and provide for the lean fuel ignition . The bike starts better when the plug is indexed which is an additional plus.

 

[Kansas Bad Man]

To go to lengths to disprove a proven tool in modern day tuning techniques makes me wonder why. If a guy used today P.I. tuning for speed as his building H.P. into his race bike exclusively, he would not have a winner. You would only have to research cylinder bore material and finish, cam profiles, carbs size to valve size or cylinder volume, rod angels, and port design to name but a few. All of the afore have undergone changes in thinking, what was gospel in the 50s is no longer the norm of todays way of doing things.

 

[Magnetoman]

Some things that are considered a scientific fact such as 186,000 miles in one second for the speed of light, are a bit to precise to be a fact don't you think? So one has to take it with a grain salt and call it a fact...

Assuming you're not being facetious, the precision with which the speed of light is known is a good example of real, not voodoo, science. Over the past century many labs in many countries in the world have all measured the speed of light and all have reproducibly arrived at the same result. The speed that is measured isn't at the edges of credibility as to what could be measured with their instrumentation. This differs from the claim of a sub-1% effect measured with a dyno.

I can easily imagine how indexing spark plugs has become an urban legend that many people accept as fact. Even if a tuner knows he cannot measure something to 1% on the dyno he is using, but he wants every fraction of a h.p. he can get, of course he would index his plugs in the hope it would help. If all his friends index their plugs and he doesn't he would risk suffering their abuse for not doing something "everyone knows" works.

A racer works to burn every microgram of fuel in his combustion chamber. Equally concerned with this should be automotive companies around the world. With 40+ years of ever-increasing restrictions on emissions, every microgram of fuel that doesn't burn and contribute to increased h.p. is a microgram that comes out the exhaust pipe. Given this, do new cars come from the factory with their plugs indexed? I ask this question not knowing the answer. However, if every Cruze, Focus, Corolla, Altima, ... comes from the factory with indexed plugs, that would be very strong circumstantial evidence that indexing works. And vice versa.

 

[Kansas Bad Man]

The point of the speed of light thing is, I say it is 185, 999 miles per second can the labs all over the world prove me wrong , the answer is NO not a chance in hell. So we have a very possible fact that disproves a close guess which that is what it is nothing more then a educated guess , close is good enough for these types of numbers . 1 difference in calculation a 100 light year distance which is a math problem not a physics problem could represent more then a mile or two error. The Daytona track is 2 and 1/2 miles for 1 lap , if indexing gave a 1 foot advantage per lap over a car that didn't index there plugs , after 200 laps he would have a two hundred foot lead , need I say more as to the merits of indexing, granting it to be hard to measure. As far as the car analogy , I am not going to waste my time explaining the give and take of mass production, one hour per unit represents millions of dollars. I gave you circumstantial evidence, but you didn't want to hear that, you would rather argue your thoughts. To answer your question , in away they do, multi sparkplug grounds surrounding the center electrode serves the same purpose, giving one of the grounds the proper index . Withdrawing from debate, I know what I'm talking about, I will never convince you other then meeting you on the race track , that aint going to happen, so what is the use

 

[Magnetoman]

The point of the speed of light thing is, I say it is 185, 999 miles per second can the labs all over the world prove me wrong , the answer is NO not a chance in hell. So we have a very possible fact that disproves a close guess which that is what it is nothing more then a educated guess , close is good enough for these types of numbers .

Max, you're completely wrong. The speed of light has been measured to 9 places so anyone who says it actually differs from the measured value in the 6th place is most certainly wrong. Further, I strongly urge anyone who thinks the speed of light listed in tables is just "a close guess" or an "educated guess" to read some basic science texts. My posts have been about what actually can be reproducibly measured, not about guesses.

The Daytona track is 2 and 1/2 miles for 1 lap , if indexing gave a 1 foot advantage per lap over a car that didn't index there plugs , after 200 laps he would have a two hundred foot lead , need I say more as to the merits of indexing, ...

Again, please re-read what I wrote. I never said a 1% improvement wouldn't be worthwhile. I said that I doubted that measurements showed that indexing the plugs provided such an improvement. There's a difference.

This provides a wall that the incoming fuel /air has to go around , this prevents wetting of the plug and gives a lean mixture at the center electrode for an easer ignition.

Can you clarify how you believe this works? I don't think anyone doubts that using a choke results in a rich mixture, and most people people use a choke to make starting easier. Given this, are you saying for easier ignition the combustion chamber needs to be filled with a rich mixture overall, except at the electrode where it needs to be lean?

 

[vincenttwin]

Max, you're completely wrong. The speed of light has been measured to 9 places so anyone who says it actually differs from the measured value in the 6th place is most certainly wrong. Further, I strongly urge anyone who thinks the speed of light listed in tables is just "a close guess" or an "educated guess" to read some basic science texts. My posts have been about what actually can be reproducibly measured, not about guesses.

Again, please re-read what I wrote. I never said a 1% improvement wouldn't be worthwhile. I said that I doubted that measurements showed that indexing the plugs provided such an improvement. There's a difference.

Can you clarify how you believe this works? I don't think anyone doubts that using a choke results in a rich mixture, and most people people use a choke to make starting easier. Given this, are you saying for easier ignition the combustion chamber needs to be filled with a rich mixture overall, except at the electrode where it needs to be lean?

 

[vincenttwin]

Much easier. Than indexing is use E3 plugs and they do not care where they point.
Heres a little bit from Hot Rod

Whether the side electrode requires special orientation or indexing within the chamber is controversial. Everyone agrees that it is sometimes necessary to control electrode orientation on extremely high-compression engines using pop-up pistons-not to gain power but to keep the dome from contacting the side electrode and closing up the plug gap. The advent of angle-plug heads and (for racing) extremely small-volume combustion chambers has minimized the need for this.

In the past, some maintained there was power to be had from (depending on the theorist) pointing the open end of the side electrode toward the chamber's squish area or toward the exhaust side. Again, with modern quick-burn chambers, the current thinking is there's usually no discernible power difference, but the final arbiter is, of course, actual dyno testing of the individual combination.



Read more: http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_1005_spark_plug_reach_tech/#ixzz2xfAlPTZl

 

[vincenttwin]

If desired, specific plug electrode orientation can be controlled by using varying-thickness spacer washers, available from Moroso and other aftermarket sources. Moroso PN 71910 is a flat washer assortment for gasket-seat, 14mm spark plugs. For 14mm, tapered-seat spark plugs, use Moroso conical washer assortment PN 71900. Remember that adding washers moves the plug backward deeper in the hole, which as noted above could call for more ignition lead. Finally, look into using E3 spark plugs, which use a patented Edge-to-Edge electrode design that eliminates the need for indexing.

Sources
Champion Spark Plugs (Federal-Mogul Corp.)
Southfield, MI
248/354-7700
www.federalmogul.com

E3 Spark Plugs
Ponte Vedra, FL
www.e3sparkplugs.com

FRAM/Autolite
800/890-2075
www.autolite.com

Moroso Performance Products Inc.
Guilford, CT
203/453-6571 (general) or 203/458-0542 (tech)






Read more: http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_...rice_pinion_angle_question.html#ixzz2xfBjxi4v

 

[davidd]

On a Vincent head like mine I have a question more pertinant than indexing the plug
Given the choice-(and with a twin plug head I have been) which is the best side to have a single plug, LH or RH? obviously the spare plug hole on a road bike is for a Royal Enfield decompressor much preferable to the mares nest of linkages roller and oil leaks in the timing chest.

Tim,

I asked myself the same question when I saw the photos in the Damper thread. I have always used the right plug on a single plug set-up, but it is only because of the original design. I know nothing about the flow and turbulence inside the head as it approaches TDC on compression. I have two small 90 degree squish shelves on either side of the valves. I have two plugs just above them. The open side of the plug is half way between the squish band and the exhaust valve.

When I cannot find a math formula or SAE paper, I just guess. The dyno is an incredible help, in general. For small details, that is, incremental gains in BHP I think that Magnetoman is correct. There are too many variables and the tolerance is to large to be useful. But, despite all the science, I have to guess at so many things that I often think it is more art than science at this level. The challenge is pushing yourself to cleave to the science. Even with the art/science ratio skewed toward art, it is exciting to be out there.

David