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Shop built roller starter


Glenliman

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Dan Smith built this roller starter for his Velo Roarer project. That bike has been sold to the Solvang Museum in California. The buyer did not need the starter so Dan kindly gave it to me.
It is bolted to the floor and starts the 10.8 to 1 1360 easily, provided a big battery is hooked up. The car battery was enough for the 9 to one Rapide, but wouldn't start the 1360. For that I borrow a battery from the F350 diesel or a similar big battery from a JD crawler.
Then the bike fires instantly. Four plugs and an extra hot twin driver Pazon ignition help.
This is not an easy bike to kick over.

 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Sounds Nice Glen, I like the 2 into one Exhaust, Bit like my home made one, I did for my Special.
I am sure it was worth a few BHP, Better than L/ning Pipes.
Cheers Bill.
 

Attachments

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I drive mine with a mains motor 4.5 hp it draws 13.5 amps mostly I get by without the electric supply tripping
The frame and rollers was from a guy on eBay who sold them for £350
 

Magnetoman

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
For what it's worth, I haven't started a Vincent on them but my DocZ rollers with two Ford starter motors draws a measured 480 A so ~7.7 h.p. If it takes a while to start the power would drop by 15% (to 6.6 h.p.) after 15 sec. and by 30% (to 5.4 h.p.) after 30 sec. This when using a marine MCA845 deep discharge battery. What may be more relevant is a significant amount of power was lost in the original cables and clamps so I upgraded both.
DocZ_connector.jpg
I bought welding clamps as replacements and modified them with ~1 sq.in. Cu pads to make contact with the Cu electrodes I made to bolt to the battery. The resistance of those connectors is now only 0.22 mΩ each. Although with 500 A through them the voltage drop at each clamp is now only ~0.1 V that's still 55 W of heat each. Each of the 2 AWG cables that came on the rollers had 6x that much loss (1.36 mΩ), which I reduced to 0.86 mΩ by replacing them with 1/0 AWG. Still the losses in both of the connectors and cables account for ~10% of the total power supplied by the battery. Such is the nature of high currents. However, before these upgrades to the circuit the losses were over 2x as much so only ~80% of the available power got to the motors, with the rest helping to melt the polar icecaps.
 

Dave61

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I`ve bought a frame & rollers of eBay,if anyone has seen my attempt at starting our Rapide for the first time this won`t seem unreasonable :)
I`m intending to use a mains motor, probably a 1.5KW / 2HP 1400RPM one.
Will this be man enough for starting a twin or should I go for a bigger rating ?
Frame & rollers look pretty good & were £263.75 delivered so not too steep.
Cheers
Dave

PS. I`ll trail a long extension lead for when I inevitably stall it.
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I know you have a health problem Dave, why didn't you go for a French electric starter?
Good Luck, Bill.
 
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Dave61

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I know you have a health problem Dave, why didn't you go for a French electric starter?
Good Luck, Bill.
If I can get away without fitting an electric starter I`d prefer it but reality may change my mind, it`s the thought of breaking the sprag clutch that puts me off.
Saw this thread & thought it may be a good idea like Tim said, ride a circular route back to home, & it`s not going to cost a lot.
Once I`ve got some miles on the bike & it`s loosened up a bit hopefully I`ll have cracked the starting technique.
Also liked the idea of being able to get the oil circulating using the rollers.
Getting ahead of myself as I`m waiting on Simon doing the dating letter so I can get the reregistration completed.
Cheers
Dave
 

BigEd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
VOC Forum Moderator
If I can get away without fitting an electric starter I`d prefer it but reality may change my mind, it`s the thought of breaking the sprag clutch that puts me off.
Saw this thread & thought it may be a good idea like Tim said, ride a circular route back to home, & it`s not going to cost a lot.
Once I`ve got some miles on the bike & it`s loosened up a bit hopefully I`ll have cracked the starting technique.
Also liked the idea of being able to get the oil circulating using the rollers.
Getting ahead of myself as I`m waiting on Simon doing the dating letter so I can get the reregistration completed.
Cheers
Dave
Only my opinion, as I don't know you or your circumstances but I think you would have been better putting your money towards an electric start kit. My Rapide has always been a good starter, if it needed more than two kicks you had forgotten to turn the petrol on or similar. I am pretty active but 50 + years of kickstarting bikes my knees have had enough. I have several more modern electric start bikes so I know how convenient a handlebar starter button is. I have fitted my Grosset electric start a few years ago and it works very well. I have even taken the kick start lever off so I'm not even tempted to kick it. If for some reason the battery is flat it will start with a push as I don't have coil ignition. Tales of broken sprag clutches etc are, I believe over-exaggerated with most problems being caused by incorrect fitting and lack of attention to ignition timing. Francois stresses in his instruction sheets the importance of not having too much advance for starting as it is backfires that are not good for sprag clutches.
The above sounds like an advert for electric starts but if riding becomes more difficult we have to try to make things easier to ride and that, first and foremost is our ability to get the thing going.
A set of starter rollers would be great in your workshop but is no use at all when you are not at home. If I want to spin the engine over at home I use the electric start. As I said at the beginning, just my opinion but based on using an electric start on my Rapide.
 
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Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
A good Twin should start after one or 2 kicks, Mine are OK from Hot or Cold, It's warmish that drives me mad.
But I have now found they need choke or flooding, If not run for 1/4 of an hour , By the coast.
Cheers Bill.
 

Dave61

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Only my opinion, as I don't know you or your circumstances but I think you would have been putting your money towards an electric start kit. My Rapide has always been a good starter, if it needed more than two kicks you had forgotten to turn the petrol on or similar. I am pretty active but 50 + years of kickstarting bikes my knees have had enough. I have several more modern electric start bikes so I know how convenient a handlebar starter button is. I have fitted my Grosset electric start a few years ago and it works very well. I have even taken the kick start lever off so I'm not even tempted to kick it. If for some reason the battery is flat it will start with a push as I don't have coil ignition. Tales of broken sprag clutches etc are, I believe over-exaggerated with most problems being caused by incorrect fitting and lack of attention to ignition timing. Francois stresses in his instruction sheets the importance of not having too much advance for starting as it is backfires that are not good for sprag clutches.
The above sounds like an advert for electric starts but if riding becomes more difficult we have to try to make things easier to ride and that, first and foremost is our ability to get the thing going.
A set of starter rollers would be great in your workshop but is no use at all when you are not at home. If I want to spin the engine over at home I use the electric start. As I said at the beginning, just my opinion but based on using an electric start on my Rapide.
I`ve always found your opinions pretty sound Ed.
As I haven`t actually had the chance to see how I get on with with the Vin, I`ll have to make decisions when I`ve had a decent go.
I`m not seeing the rollers as a Panacea for any concerns I may have, just like a gadget & can`t help myself sometimes.
I`ve got Grosset ignition & Mikuni carbs so think it should be a good starter.
Cheers
Dave
 

BigEd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
VOC Forum Moderator
I`ve always found your opinions pretty sound Ed.
As I haven`t actually had the chance to see how I get on with with the Vin, I`ll have to make decisions when I`ve had a decent go.
I`m not seeing the rollers as a Panacea for any concerns I may have, just like a gadget & can`t help myself sometimes.
I`ve got Grosset ignition & Mikuni carbs so think it should be a good starter.
Cheers
Dave
Dear Dave,
No criticism intended and I'm the same with gadgets and often can't resist and only regretting it when I realise I've used a gadget only once and then put it away and forgotten about it.:rolleyes:
I hope you get on OK with the Vincent. It is nothing like a modern machine but full of what we politely call character. Some of that "character" is a pain in the backside at times but it just has that feel-good factor when it is rolling along nicely.
 

Magnetoman

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I`m intending to use a mains motor, probably a 1.5KW / 2HP 1400RPM one.
I can't specifically answer the question you asked but I can provide some information that's directly relevant.

My DocZ rollers came with a single motor and had no trouble starting a Gold Star with 10:1 compression. But, since it had a slot for a second motor, I couldn't stop myself from adding it. With the two motors it still manages to start that Gold Star... The following measurement applies to the two-motor configuration:

The pair of motors draw a combined 480 A total so assuming a nominal 12 V for the battery[*], that's 5.76 kW. Obviously, with one motor it would be half that, i.e. 2.9 kW. This says that twice the h.p. of the motor you asked about will start an engine half the size (but greater compression) than your Vincent. From there you'll have to speculate.

[*]You plan to use mains but for those who use a battery, since the current drops linearly with voltage the power supplied to the rollers will be reduced to 85% after 15 sec; to 70% after 30 sec.; and 55% after 45 sec. This is relevant if someone plans to use rollers to spin an engine long enough to be sure oil is flowing.
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Just watched a Video of the latest Indian in the UK, V Twin 1200 cc, Very impressed,
Then someone asked if the speedo was in KPH, And was told yes !.
I think I will stick with my Vincent Twin !.
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Of course for real starting ease our faithfull Foxley starter takes some beating
it will start Ben's flying bricks and our twin racer with ease.
Ruben (11 years old grandson)this year is now the starter man at meetings: ignition on, choke on, pull cord, choke off, twist grip rev up, push roller against back wheel.... wham!
like a military exercise, he loves it
1573204685416.png
 

Dave61

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I can't specifically answer the question you asked but I can provide some information that's directly relevant.

My DocZ rollers came with a single motor and had no trouble starting a Gold Star with 10:1 compression. But, since it had a slot for a second motor, I couldn't stop myself from adding it. With the two motors it still manages to start that Gold Star... The following measurement applies to the two-motor configuration:

The pair of motors draw a combined 480 A total so assuming a nominal 12 V for the battery[*], that's 5.76 kW. Obviously, with one motor it would be half that, i.e. 2.9 kW. This says that twice the h.p. of the motor you asked about will start an engine half the size (but greater compression) than your Vincent. From there you'll have to speculate.

[*]You plan to use mains but for those who use a battery, since the current drops linearly with voltage the power supplied to the rollers will be reduced to 85% after 15 sec; to 70% after 30 sec.; and 55% after 45 sec. This is relevant if someone plans to use rollers to spin an engine long enough to be sure oil is flowing.
Thanks for that info, given me food for thought.
Cheers
Dave
 

Glenliman

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Only my opinion, as I don't know you or your circumstances but I think you would have been better putting your money towards an electric start kit. My Rapide has always been a good starter, if it needed more than two kicks you had forgotten to turn the petrol on or similar. I am pretty active but 50 + years of kickstarting bikes my knees have had enough. I have several more modern electric start bikes so I know how convenient a handlebar starter button is. I have fitted my Grosset electric start a few years ago and it works very well. I have even taken the kick start lever off so I'm not even tempted to kick it. If for some reason the battery is flat it will start with a push as I don't have coil ignition. Tales of broken sprag clutches etc are, I believe over-exaggerated with most problems being caused by incorrect fitting and lack of attention to ignition timing. Francois stresses in his instruction sheets the importance of not having too much advance for starting as it is backfires that are not good for sprag clutches.
The above sounds like an advert for electric starts but if riding becomes more difficult we have to try to make things easier to ride and that, first and foremost is our ability to get the thing going.
A set of starter rollers would be great in your workshop but is no use at all when you are not at home. If I want to spin the engine over at home I use the electric start. As I said at the beginning, just my opinion but based on using an electric start on my Rapide.
Good advice for anyone having difficulty starting standard, well tuned Rapide.
I don't think the Grosset starter is skookum enough to start this 1360.
Likely I'll need to fit an E start at some point, but for now it's nice to keep the bike weight below 350.
With the roller starter doing the cold start I seem to be managing for now.
The roller starter has definitely reduced the knee pain. I never had a knee problem until this hi comp. 1360 came along. Another example of self-inflicted injury!

Glen
 
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vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
No names no pack drill but i recently saw a hi comp 1300 egli start with an electic starter. There was no problem starting it so the starter is man enough..
The problem was where to put the two large lithium batteries and getting the money to pay for them. To put it in context a car battery would only give a perfunctory couple of turns
 

Magnetoman

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
A set of starter rollers would be great in your workshop but is no use at all when you are not at home.
I thought it might be worthwhile to address this point. While technically true, in practice it's not as bad as that. First, my rollers get me out of the house in the morning having had one less assault on my knee. Which may not seem like a big deal, but the effects are cumulative as well as worse as you get older. Then, not always but still quite often, it's possible to find high spots to park where bump starting saves a few subsequent assaults during the day. Unfortunately, filling stations almost always are on flat territory so my knee is still required.
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Back before grocers sold petrol I had a 51 7R on the road for a year I knew every filling station on a hill in Bucks Herts and parts of Oxfordshire. I still avoid supermarket filling stations on principal unless they are Esso of course (But they never are)
 

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