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Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
I briefly saw the picture of the you-tube video even though I did not watch it........It reminded me of a scene from a local Bingo hall.......And therein lies your problem........a bunch of "Old Folk".........ok no offence meant by this, but it is the truth........Not confined to just this club but anything of a similar nature. I know because I've spent a great deal of my life working with older people........very smart, very knowledgeable, very stubborn, and who don't like change, and don't like being told what to do if they think they are right........ I also know because I am slowly becoming one of them (so my wife keeps telling me).......I use to enjoy watching two old blokes arguing about something.......In they end, they would "agree to disagree" and that was the end of it.........as an onlooker, I could agree with the one i thought was correct, whilst the other one was "A silly old fool"........Personally I have left several clubs due to club politics, or comments/treatment that I would not put up with........People need to work out for themselves if it's worth it or not.......... We've seen some pretty savage things here in Australia that are VOC related and some of it quite recently as well. Once again, mostly political, things that were done for years has been changed, and members don't like it. Our section up here in Queensland has escaped much of this unrest I feel due to the section being quite young, so the long standing opinions have little effect....... I think we are just happy to see each other once in a while, to catch up and just hear what everyone has been up to........ Nothing to get hostile about really.
If A few of our Older members were there ,
Like Brian Phillips and Mark Goodson, It would have been stopped, Quick !.
Cheers Bill.
 

Little Honda

Well Known and Active Forum User
Non-VOC Member
The trouble is, MPH could be filled to the brim with letters and it still wouldn’t make any difference - it would just lead to yet another complaint against Graham for supposedly “rallying the troops”. I have seen too much in the Club over the years (been part of the VOC since I was 2, a full member since my 16th birthday) to know that if certain “powers that be” have made up their mind then that is that. No amount of arguing will get them to change their mind because they don’t want to be seen to have been wrong.

I am proud to say that I have countless fond memories of my 40+ years in the Club. Sadly I have also witnessed and been party to bad ones - but if you speak out you are deemed a troublemaker. When I think back I remember the Concours Head Judge going up to my Dad at an Annual rally and telling him “technically your bike has won…..but we want to give it to our mate instead. You don’t mind, do you Ray?” The endless battle we had when after 20 years of voluntary service by my parents running the Club Shop, Mr Kirker & Co decided to take it off them and give it to the VOCSC to supposedly boost their coffers. Many members stood up for my parents, for which we were eternally grateful but the decision had been made regardless. Russ and I even offered to run Club shop voluntarily from Vinparts’ premesis so that my parents could continue their enjoyment of running the shop at rallies but at the relevant Exec meeting (when I was on the Exec at the time) I had to remind the Chairman, Mr Kirker, that a second proposal existed - he agreed there was a proposal from Vinparts but it never even got read out or addressed further. The deal was already done.

Whilst on the Exec as Social Secretary I had to deal with a number of issues which in the end resulted in my resignation - though a different reason was quoted in MPH. My first two meetings found me sat squirming in my seat while it was debated whether I should be allowed to be there, given that I worked for Vinparts at the time. The third meeting, I was told to leave the room while the VOCSC was discussed - as if they thought I was there to spy. Russ would be interrogated after Exec meetings to see if he knew anything that they wanted to keep from him. As the token female, I sat in several meetings feeling extremely uncomfortable while one man (who I will not name) sat leant across the back of my chair etc - and no-one batted an eyelid. I received email correspondence that I was supposed to keep from my partner that was actually slagging him off and plotting against his (our) livelihood. When I quit as a result of that, I got a nasty slagging off by the person who had had to take over my job temporarily.

I feel completely torn by the latest shenanigans. Both Ernie and Arthur, whose bahviour is amongst that which has upset people, are people who for many years I have considered good friends. I have had fun times with both, Arthur was even amongst the few Club members who attended my wedding. Nevertheless I can still remember a couple of telling off’s received from one for selling my Dad’s Prince without offering it to him first and for daring to say anything against the VOCSC in public and the other guy has sent me several stupid emails and a phone message berating me over my opinion of the forum’s future. It’s all just REALLY sad. When did this Club get so bitchy and political? As a bit of an old fashioned person who has been brought up to respect those we look up to, I am personally glad that the likes of our President, Bryan, Sir Mark Goodson, Andy Everett and so forth were not present at the last GCM to witness what happened. Bryan is the epitome of good manners and I would hate for him to be upset by how downhill the standards have dropped. By the way, was I the only one who physically gagged when the person who SHOULD have been defending the IT changes started picking his nose on camera amid his continued silence? I know children with better manners!

Russell and I both pay full membership (no fighting over MPH in our house, lol) but we too have talked about not renewing our memberships this year. Based solely on the way the Club is going, I vote “leave” but my inner conscience knows that my Dad would turn in his grave in horror as he was a VOC man through and through. I therefore beg the Exec from the bottom of my heart to change my mind.

Allowing both forums seems, to most, to be such an easy, cheap and logical solution. Yet we have all this arguing and mud-slinging because one or two people don’t want to be seen to be conceding. Now it has developed into a character assassination of a VOLUNTEER who has given up 15 years of his personal time to create one of the Club’s most notable assets. Accusations that, regardless of whether they are truth or lies, have implications that could re-ignite the Lumley case that the VOC has tried so hard in recent years to forget, given the terrible reputation it gave the VOC from the outside motorcycling world.

I hope, for the sake of the VOC, that those in power on the Exec can find a way to rectify what has become highly embarrassing for them. The odd apology here and there and an agreement to allow this forum to continue in it’s current format is all it would take to end all the upset and return to normal pleasantries. Yes, maybe one or two may need to re-evaluate their ability to continue on the Exec but people come and go and so far the VOC has survived okay.
Debbie,
spoken freely from yr heart, as is my impression. But, yr conflict is shared by quite some others.
What has not been put into our view, is the fact, that a leave by those, who do not want to further look
on this kind of bad manners and complete lack of gentlemanlikeship may lead to a non- renewal of their
membership, yet with a maintaining watch to the club´s further development.
Everybody may renew again, after disturbing influences have settled down or gone, eventually.
 

Martyn Goodwin

Well Known and Active Forum User
Non-VOC Member
And that, my dears, is why the Club needs to be careful. Once bad behaviour and broken rules are “out there” they remain public forever, no matter who tries to delete them. Any potential new member who “Google’s” the Vincent HRD Owners Club discovers the supposed Lumley scandal which is not a great advert but cannot be helped because it is an unfortunate part of Club history. I fear this latest addition will go the same way.

Personally I am all for meetings being recorded and placed online so that those who can’t attend can catch up later and still feel part of the Club, particularly as we are fortunate enough to have a large contingent of international members on differing time zones. Hopefully the accessibility of future meetings would reassure members that the current video doing the rounds is not an indication of usual meeting practises.
so download it while you can?
 

Tim Kirker

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Somebody asked for an explanation of what is going on here, so maybe I can help.

At the GCM a couple of weeks ago, a motion was tabled that a proposal to make Graham Smith an Honorary Member of the VOC should go forward to the AGM in October. I exercised my right to speak, and opposed the motion. For anybody interested in why, I will happily forward the script from which I read – contact tim.kirker@zen.co.uk. I do not think it appropriate to publish it on this forum, or any other for that matter. It was delivered to the main policy making body of the Club, the General Committee, and is, therefore, not confidential. But in line with practice since 1948 in the VOC, and in other organisations I have subscribed to, proceedings of the General Committee are circulated to members of the General Committee only, and not to every Club member. Members may ask for access to any Club minutes, but they are not, as a rule, published more widely.

[Note. Since drafting this post (Yes, Norman, I have thought about this before posting it . . .) the General Committee minutes have been circulated, including my script, verbatim.]

Since the meeting, many on this Forum have criticised me for things I did not say but, interestingly, very few, if any, comments question my description of actions carried out, and opinions put forward by Graham, which I find unbecoming of an Honorary Member of the VOC. In other words what I said had happened, had happened. It is a matter of opinion whether or not that was helpful or harmful to the VOC. And I am entitled to an opinion, and entitled to express it.

By way of example. I mentioned that Graham receives payment for some of the work he does in publishing MPH. This is fact, as confirmed by Robert Watson in his much more detailed and authoritative description of what happens. I did not say that Graham was ‘syphoning’ funds from the VOC. I also made it clear that my opinion of this arrangement was positive. We should be prepared to pay for these services. But we should know about it, and we should know where the funds are going.

[I don’t have access to exact figures (does anybody?), but just try this little calculation. If we are paying £2000 per month for MPH after postage, that is roughly equivalent to 10 hours per week, at £50 per hour. But maybe half the cost goes on printing, leaving 5 hours at £50? The point is, we don’t know, and I believe we should. Or, at least, the EC should know.]

It came as no surprise to me that what I said led to a heated and sometimes unpleasant discussion. That was not my intention, but was the inevitable by-product of challenging Graham’s position within the VOC. And I make no bones about having planned to speak, and having written out what I was going to say beforehand. Norman Walker seemed to think this was somehow underhand but, on such a contentious issue, and touching on an individual’s character and behaviour, I felt it was important that I had thought it all through and that I had my facts straight. My only regret is that Josh Smith had to sit through it, but the only way to have avoided that would have been to say nothing.

Sadly, since the meeting, the lies, rumours, innuendo, insults, abuse that colour this whole discussion have continued to proliferate on the forum. And now, as forum posters are running out of abuse to pile on me and others, they are adopting the time honoured tactic of invoking the dead in their support. Apparently, if you ever had lunch with Mark Goodson, you’ll know exactly what his position would have been. And everybody knows what Andy Everett would have thought. Having worked closely with both of them for twenty-some years, I don’t believe we would have been on opposite sides of this debate – but who knows? But it doesn’t stop there. Some people know exactly what Bryan Phillips and Jacqueline Bickerstaff think about this, by some sort of telepathy – and they can speak for themselves. The fact that they have not done so publicly, for whatever reason, does not give any of us the right to speak for them.

One final thought. Isn’t it strange that all these members who know what a mess the Executive Committee are making of running this Club, and who know exactly how it should be run, never appear on the ballot paper when the opportunity to serve the Club comes up, every year? I am no apologist for the Executive Committee. They do things I don’t agree with, and they don’t do some things they should do. (For instance, we know, to our cost, that there should be much greater rigour exercised in establishing who can and cannot vote at a GCM. This has not been an issue in recent times, because we’re all mates, but things have clearly become too lax.)

But where is the alternative Executive Committee, who can run the Club so much better? Or is Graham going to run it single-handed? I’m afraid that this lot is the best Executive Committee we’ve got and, if we want the Club to survive and prosper, they need our support, not our abuse.

I will, of course, be making these arguments at the forthcoming AGM, if the Chairman permits, where I hope the wider membership might take a more objective view of the proposal.

[A short note of explanation to Ron Thomas. The term ‘custodian’ in the rules is used, following legal advice, to denote the three main players who are ‘custodians’ of the Club’s finances and assets. They are also the cheque signatories. They are not ‘custodians’ of the club’s behaviour, ethics, morals, conduct of meetings etc. We’re all responsible for that.]

Tim Kirker
 
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