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C: Clutch Refreshing Vincent Twin Clutch seals and pieces



greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
There are definitely some area's of the clutch that should have the slightest amount of lubrication, especially anti-seize, the bushes and so on should not be set up so as to have minimal clearances, or else the clutch can give trouble. Interesting point about the twisting action of the plate carrier acting on the C20 nut, but there are equal loads either side from two shoes, and the bush in its center should be very lightly lubricated at assembly. I have worked on and rebuilt many of these clutches now (by far the best clutch for a Vincent twin) and I feel that generally the C20 nut comes loose because it is not done up tight enough, this may be because owners see the need to align the slots in the mainshaft with one on the nut, and simply nip it up like they would a front wheel bearing on an older type of car/trailer wheel hub. And also that the factory gave little in the way of torque figures for any of these nuts, not unlike the ESA nut. Most folk these days have no "Feel" as to how tight something should be tightened to, as these trades/skills slowly disappear.......... Some people on this forum including myself will be the last of that generation.
 

Chris Launders

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Should the C3 be flat on the inner end, I came across a spare today a friend gave me and it has a chamfer on the outside almost 1/2 the thickness.
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Chris, It is generally just a flat recess machined in the center end of the C3, the flat inner face of the C20 nut actually sits inside this recess or a bit less if the Dowty type seal is in there. I take Vic's point about any back and forth play in the spline of the C3 when placed on the mainshaft spline. Not unlike a loose sprocket on the G4 output shaft that loosens the sprocket nut. That is why I mentioned that generally if this happened to be the case, the outer smooth area that the chainwheel bushes and seal run on, is generally worn as well, and a replacement of the G3 is really the best option. Spline repair is generally difficult and expensive, more so than the cost of a new G3, remembering some of these parts are very old and may have suffered issues for a long time that only adds to the problem. If you have a reoccurring problem, sometimes the only cure is to replace the offending parts..........We are lucky that they are available to us...........For now.
 

Chris Launders

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Greg, the INNER end, where it goes up against PD21. This is an unused spare and I got it because mine is worn on the outside and want to replace it sometime.
Chris.
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Sorry Chris I was looking at the wrong end of the stick ....... Yes they do have a small chamfer so it does not destroy the seal within the chainwheel bushes, perhaps the one you have has been "got at" by someone. It may not matter so long as the face is flat, you may need to try it and see if it protrudes through the chainwheel with a bit of end float.
 

Chris Launders

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I was wondering about fitting an O ring in the end but there's not much metal left, I'll wait until I do have it apart and go through it all then.
Thanks Chris.
 

litnman

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I've just checked 3 C20s that were threaded onto a g3 shaft which was set
between centers. Using a dial indicator, one oscillated / wobbled .035, one .020 and the last one .005. With that much run out of the first two, you can imagine how this would cause the C3 to wobble.
 

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I am refreshing old pieces in my Rapide clutch. I ordered new C14 and find the old 406 screws will not engage fully as they should.
Is this a common problem?
should I return these for correct pieces?
should I just cut off my old 406 screws?

25860
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Have you spoken to the supplier?
That action is just as important as asking what is to done on here, The supplier may be in blissful ignorance and even now continuing to sell items that may (or may not) be wrong, and in some cases making it even harder for his own recompense from his supplier
We are blessed with a good supply of parts but it is important to keep the suppliers informed of errors that slip through, too often moans about the same parts not fitting by many people could have been avoided if the person to suffer first contacted the supplier rather than bodging the problem.
Put it this way you may be smart enough to sort it the next guy may not be
 
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A_HRD

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Craig,
Just for reference, the Spares Part List shows 406 screw as 7/8" overall length. Also there is a note alongside saying that 3/4" long is OK too. If your 406s meet this requirement then there is a problem with the new C14s.
Peter B
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I went in the Club Shop, On my Computer, A few hours ago and it said X 1" ??.
Ron and me did a Twin a few months ago, And had a hell of a job getting the screws to start, New screws and new Primary plate, The new plates are much thicker now, So I had to push against the spring to start the screws, Ron looked in, I think it was the new type parts book, And I think it gave 2 types, I think Ron has ordered the long ones, To help the fitting. Cheers Bill.
 

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
So I unwrapped all 9 of the the new C14 and checked the bore/thread depth with old and new 406 screws.
Interestingly, one new C14 had a very short 406 already installed and screwed down as needed.
Two of the C14 have a blackened section indicating some heat treat , I would guess.
One of the new C14 will not accept a 406 but just a couple threads as shown, forcing the screw further simply ruins the 406 screw threads.

So the short 406 is 0.650" long and the new/old 406 are 0.900" long.....about a ¼ inch shorter.

Am I the only one in the world to have this issue with new C14?

I understand about alerting the supplier, believe me.

25875
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Craig there are a few issues with these parts, yes it is possible the 2 ba threads in the C14's are not deep enough and difficult to cut if the pins have been hardened. The replacement 2 ba screws are usually made of stainless now verses the originals in steel, so that can create thread binding issues right there. Try running a good 2 ba tap down the holes to clean up, and use some anti seize on the threads or else they will grab. The threads don't actually need to be as long as they are, but to assemble the outer ring plate and get the lot to start compressing the 6 springs is the reason they are so long. I try not to replace any of these parts unless it is absolutely necessary for these reasons, the C14 pins generally are pretty good except the fragile end where the C 35 wire clip passes through all 9 pins and the two where the C 11/1 plungers bare against, causing "flat spots" on the sides of the pins. This adds to the back lash of the C 13 plate carrier assembly once assembled, the plungers against these two C 14 pins, and this back lash should be delt with and minimized as much as you can. On most clutch rebuilds I also find the Links C 10 and the shoe pivot pins C 9 tend to get quite worn and become very sloppy, so I replace all of these, and they too require some "Fettling" to get a good and "Free" fit without binding or loss of movement, especially the Link C 10, the end where it fits the C 13 can be too tight and binds up, so some metal needs to be removed on the inner end of the squared section. There is a hell of a lot to setting up one of these clutches, and have it all work well. Cheers..........Greg.
 

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
These new C14 will not accept 2BA taps, starter or bottom. The new C14 seem too hard from heat treat.
The old C14 are cracking bits of metal at the delicate wire hole and would flake bits off into the shoes.

Since one of the new C14 came with a short 406 (and the short 406 do screw down all the way), is this a hint that all future C14 will require 0.650" length 406 screws?
Can you assemble the clutch plates with ¼ shorter 406 screws?

Am I the only one to order new C14 and have this issue?
Has someone ordered new C14 and not had this issue?
Craig
 

timetraveller

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Craig, I realise that it is not easy to return stuff to the UK with all the problems with customs etc. but I urge you to return these items. The Spares Company does its best to check quality control but occasionally it gets it wrong. From the experience of several people I know it seems that occasionally no one checks the fit of various items and instead they pay the manufacturers for these and then put them on the shelf until some unfortunate customer trips up over the lack of fit. I'm sure that this is not common practice and I have no idea how items get through what should be a checking exercise. There is no point getting at any one individual as I expect that every one is doing their best. Most of us are share holders in the Spares Company and at some stage whoever signs off substandard parts should be held responsible. The situation is now much better than it was about fifteen to twenty years ago when I offered to check parts at no cost against many of the old, original items I have lying about. The offer was never taken up. The advantage of doing what you are, which is to publicise a problem, is to let others who might be in the same situation know that it is not just them. Nevertheless, the Spares Company needs to be given the chance to put things right and, if necessary, to apologise.
 

craig

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I am not trying to jam these C14 up the ass of any supplier or fabricator.
I want to ride my Rapide and am looking for recent Vincent twin clutch rebuilds requiring C14 and what is to be found, modified, considered, thought about, experienced around this C14 part.

I can easily plan action around this issue. I am a fabricator, restorer, repairman working with Vincent everyday. This is only one part out of a Jillion that I have purchased or will purchase for Vincent repairs.
My new C14 were not supplied thru VOC Spares company.........but fabricated in UK.
So have you recently purchased C14 thru Spares?
and what did you receive?

I love the Spares company, I love the Vincent owners, I love the Vincent fabricators.........but if you are not dealing with a C14 right now or in the recent past, please don't response to my issue at hand.

Someone live near Spares and can check fit of a new VOC Spares 406/C14?


 
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highbury731

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I was given some 1" long countersunk allen screws to use as clutch spring screws, and was told that I needed to shorten them to 7/8". I tried them in my C14, and find that they screw in all the way, and that there is no need to shorten them at all. In fact, being longer makes it easier to start the assembly of the primary clutch.
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I've just checked 3 C20s that were threaded onto a g3 shaft which was set
between centers. Using a dial indicator, one oscillated / wobbled .035, one .020 and the last one .005. With that much run out of the first two, you can imagine how this would cause the C3 to wobble.
Is your G3 bent ?, Mine is on my Special, So my clutch will never be spot on, Too much Sprinting ?. Cheers Bill.
 


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