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H: Hubs, Wheels and Tyres Rapide front wheel spindle too short?



Phil Arundel

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#1
I have now progressed to mounting the front brake plates to the wheels.
On fitting the plates it seems that the wheel spindle is too short . I do not have enough spindle thread protruding to screw on the resting nut when the brake plates are shimmed out to rotate freely.
Spindle too short or am I doing something wrong?
Thanks
Phil Arundel
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#2
First are your plates alloy or steel? if steel the nuts should be flush to the end of the hollow spindle if they are not something is wrong. . an easy check whatever you have is that the hollow spindle on its own can slide between the fork ends with only small clearance
I don't have a measurement for the spindle to hand
 

Robert Watson

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#4
Or if you have alloy backing plates there are no nuts and the hollow axle does not protrude through them and the whole plot is held together by the spindle and nut.
 

Marcus Bowden

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#5
If the spindle is too short then look closely at the Tommy bar end and see if you can find the pin that goes through spindle & Tommy boss, There is normally 1/2" to 3/4" as I think they are screwed then pined, machine back the boss until you have sufficient thread for captive R.H. nut.
 

Robert Watson

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#6
OK maybe I have got it wrong. I took it that the hollow axle did not protrude through the backing plates for the thin nuts to be installed, So is that the case or is it that the wheel is all together with thin nuts, fits in between the fork legs but is too short to install the axle nut???????
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#7
NO nuts on alloy plates hollow axle ends flush.or just under flush
nuts on steel plates. then nuts flush with end of hollow axle
remember hollow axle fits between fork ends nuts or no nuts

you still have not said steel or alloy....
 

davidd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#8
I think that it does not matter if the plates are steel or Lightning plates. The axle has to fit through the two fork blades with the tommy bar on one side and the threads poking through on the other even if there is no wheel between the fork blades. When you switch from the stock plates to the Lightning plates, each Lightning plate is thicker than the stock plate by the thickness of one E80 nut, which is why the Lightning plates work without E80 nuts.

It sounds like the the plates are spread too far apart with shims (which is apparently necessary to allow them to turn freely), which in turn is spreading the fork legs and taking up all of the thread on the axle.

The blade to blade separation should be about 6". This means if you slip a tiny scale through the hollow axle it needs to be about 6" also. Your focus should be on the width of the hollow axle as the blades may pull in slightly when the axle is tightened. The E80 nut should be flush or slightly proud of the hollow axle to install the wheel in the fork.

It may be that your brake plates are bent. I have seen very few that are not bent. See if your races are home and I assume they are the correct width along with the bearings. Somehow the E80 nuts on the hollow axle need to get down to 6" or so when installed.

David
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#9
I think we need to ask if the fork blades need to be spread apart to fit the wheel assembly, If not then perhaps the forks have been assembled incorrectly, unless something is horribly bent. Fit the solid axle on its own and see if the thread comes out the other side, if not, there is your problem.
 

chankly bore

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#10
It is possible that you have a wrong mixture of bearings and spacers. Standard H22 cone is .848" wide with no spacer, only shims; H22/1 (also Imperial ) cone is .750 wide and needs a .100" spacer on the outside, The metric bearing 30204 is of 20mm. bore in the cone and is only 15.25mm. wide and needs a correspondingly wider spacer again. In my 1985 SKF Automotive fitments list it says you can mix 09067/09195 (H22/1) and 09074/09196 (H22) cups and cones if this will help you sort the problem of measurement, but I'd personally only do it for checking as different manufacturers make things differently.
 

vin998

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#11
The initial post said there wasn't enough of the spindle protruding from the brake plates to get the thin nuts on to hold the plates on. I read spindle as what I call the hollow axle. Phil doesn't say which type of brakeplate he has so he needs to let us know first. The problem is with the shims or the wheel bearing combination or the brake plates which could be buckled and need excess shims not to catch. Finally the hollow axle should be 6" long so that needs checking.

The problem Is nothing to do with the front forks as Phil is discussing fitting the brake plates to the hollow axle with the thin nuts and until he has achieved that he cannot even try and fit the wheel into the forks.
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#12
The initial post said there wasn't enough of the spindle protruding from the brake plates to get the thin nuts on to hold the plates on. I read spindle as what I call the hollow axle. Phil doesn't say which type of brakeplate he has so he needs to let us know first. The problem is with the shims or the wheel bearing combination or the brake plates which could be buckled and need excess shims not to catch. Finally the hollow axle should be 6" long so that needs checking.

The problem Is nothing to do with the front forks as Phil is discussing fitting the brake plates to the hollow axle with the thin nuts and until he has achieved that he cannot even try and fit the wheel into the forks.
Unless of course he is trying to fit nuts on alloy plates
Really we are all in the dark till he says
1, Alloy or steel plates
2 what does he call and axle and a spindle?
1540630044555.png
 

Phil Arundel

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#14
Finally got back to the thread - thanks for all the posts. Vin998 got the thrust of my problem.
To clarify I am assembling the front wheel independently of the machine.
I have steel brake plates.
I mean the hollow spindle which runs through the wheel hub.
When I have assembled all the components one of the brake plates binds on the brake drum (finned variety).
I need to shim out the brake plate to prevent it from binding on the brake drum.....but there is not enough thread on the hollow spindle left protruding when I have done this to screw on the thin nut. This leads me to believe the hollow spindle is too short.
It was mentioned in a post that the spindle should be 6" long......just been to measure and it is 5-7/8" The extra 1/8" would solve my problem.
Has anyone got a front wheel hollow spindle 6" long for sale?
Thanks again all.
Regards,
Phil
 

davidd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#15
Phil,

Maybe your hollow axle has been shortened. I only had the metric version handy for this photo, but the length should be the same on both and it is 6".
Metric Hub Dim.PNG

David
 

Kevin Emery

Website User
VOC Member
#17
Hello

I have the same problem.

I have steel hollow axle and brake plates. When I tighten the nuts up on the hollow axle I am only half way down on the nut threads. So, I decided to measure this all up. My axle length is 5 15/16". (It looks like the axle manufacturing quality control is not good. We have three axle lengths recorded in this thread alone!) The gap between the girdraulic blades in 6 1/16". I measured the spacer washers and on the left side is 4.8mm and on the right side 5.1mm. My assumption is that the brake plates are buckled. I made up a home made rig based on a wheel balancing table, a hang glider instrument clamp and a run out gauge. The run out on the left side plate was 50thou" and the run out of the right plate is 70thou". My brake plates are definately buckled. My apologies for the mixed measurement systems.

My conclusion is that the brake plates are buckled. Therefore I have to add more spacers to make up for the buckle. That is why the nuts do not fit fully.

However is my case if I did get rid of the buckle on the plates and wound the nuts in then the whole would be too narrow for the Girdraulic blades. Perhaps my wheel & girdraulics were assembled this way to compensate for the buckled plates?

Question. How does one fix buckled brake plates? Can they be turned down on a lathe or is it a case on new plates?

Regards
Kevin
 

Attachments

chankly bore

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#18
I think the brake plates were never meant to last 70 years. The riveted over anchor pin is a point of concern in any plate that has been damaged or bent. The shoe pivot pins are also known to have converged. It is instructive to place a dial gauge (D.T.I.) against a plate and operate the brakes! There have been several articles historically about welding two triangular supports between the anchor pins an the cam boss to improve rigidity. Also a nifty wheeze done many years ago by a Gippsland member here in Australia was to narrow the eyes of the brake shoes and contrive a fixed plate held by countersunk screws to keep the pivot pins parallel.You could also re-engineer the area with through bolted pivot pins a bit like the racing components. One of our American cousins just used to "straighten" the plates, but this just weakens them and cures the symptoms, not the problem. Any flexure ANYWHERE lessens braking efficiency and brake plates are mostly overlooked in this respect.
 

Phil Arundel

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#20
Hello

I have the same problem.

I have steel hollow axle and brake plates. When I tighten the nuts up on the hollow axle I am only half way down on the nut threads. So, I decided to measure this all up. My axle length is 5 15/16". (It looks like the axle manufacturing quality control is not good. We have three axle lengths recorded in this thread alone!) The gap between the girdraulic blades in 6 1/16". I measured the spacer washers and on the left side is 4.8mm and on the right side 5.1mm. My assumption is that the brake plates are buckled. I made up a home made rig based on a wheel balancing table, a hang glider instrument clamp and a run out gauge. The run out on the left side plate was 50thou" and the run out of the right plate is 70thou". My brake plates are definately buckled. My apologies for the mixed measurement systems.

My conclusion is that the brake plates are buckled. Therefore I have to add more spacers to make up for the buckle. That is why the nuts do not fit fully.

However is my case if I did get rid of the buckle on the plates and wound the nuts in then the whole would be too narrow for the Girdraulic blades. Perhaps my wheel & girdraulics were assembled this way to compensate for the buckled plates?

Question. How does one fix buckled brake plates? Can they be turned down on a lathe or is it a case on new plates?

Regards
Kevin
Hi Kevin,
It turned out that my plates were slightly buckled too.
I ended up shimming out the plate until it was just about acceptable but this meant the thin nuts would not screw on fully.
I also thought about skimming the brakes plates on the lathe but decided better of it.
However, I mounted the wheel assembly in the forks and the remainder of the binding brake plate disappeared!
It seems that the slight buckle was eliminated as I tightened up the long wheel spindle !!?
The distance between the fork blades was slightly wider than the complete wheel assembly but, of course, was taken up when tightening the long wheel spindle

By the way the hollow wheel spindles that Maughans produce are 5.15/16" long.
Phil
 


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