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ET: Engine (Twin) Order of installing sealed valve guide components?

998cc

Website User
VOC Member
Hello all.

My first new thread in these forums. I have a question about installing sealed valve guides. I have replaced the original style guides and line reamed in the past with no problems. The confusion with the sealed guides is when to install the seal itself; if installed prior to reaming the guides they must surely be damaged. How should this be done to achieve the desired results?

Thank you. :)

Russ.
Vincent owner 41 years
(Sheltering in California)
 

BigEd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
VOC Forum Moderator
Hello all.
My first new thread in these forums. I have a question about installing sealed valve guides. I have replaced the original style guides and line reamed in the past with no problems. The confusion with the sealed guides is when to install the seal itself; if installed prior to reaming the guides they must surely be damaged. How should this be done to achieve the desired results?
Thank you.
Russ.
Vincent owner 41 years
(Sheltering in California)
Assuming that you have fitted shorter seal type guides, ET41-S and ET42-S you should ream the guides before fitting the ET44 seals and Et122/S and ET122/1S seal carriers. The guides should preferably be reamed using a long piloted reamer that can be located in the top guide to ensure correct alignment. The same applies to cutting the seats if the guides are not quite concentric.
When I did the valve seal mod on my Rapide the heads had the long standard type guides fitted. I milled away the top of the guide in situ to make space for the seal and seal carrier. (My Rapide came back from Argentina and the guides were and still are cast iron.) These seals are a really good mod. Those original cast guides have been in use for 50,000 miles. I have replaced the seals once when I had the heads off and ground in the valves.
 

MartynG

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hello all.

My first new thread in these forums. I have a question about installing sealed valve guides. I have replaced the original style guides and line reamed in the past with no problems. The confusion with the sealed guides is when to install the seal itself; if installed prior to reaming the guides they must surely be damaged. How should this be done to achieve the desired results?

Thank you. :)

Russ.
Vincent owner 41 years
(Sheltering in California)
This may help

Martyn
 

Attachments

998cc

Website User
VOC Member
Assuming that you have fitted shorter seal type guides, ET41-S and ET42-S you should ream the guides before fitting the ET44 seals and Et122/S and ET122/1S seal carriers. The guides should preferably be reamed using a long piloted reamer that can be located in the top guide to ensure correct alignment. The same applies to cutting the seats if the guides are not quite concentric.
When I did the valve seal mod on my Rapide the heads had the long standard type guides fitted. I milled away the top of the guide in situ to make space for the seal and seal carrier. (My Rapide came back from Argentina and the guides were and still are cast iron.) These seals are a really good mod. Those original cast guides have been in use for 50,000 miles. I have replaced the seals once when I had the heads off and ground in the valves.
Eddy. Yes, I have the shortened guides and seal carriers (sourced from VOC Spares). The seal carriers need reaming as well, so I assume the best practice would be to install the guides and seal carriers, cool the heads, line ream the guide/seal carriers, reheat, remove the seal carriers, install the X-ring seals then re-install the carriers while still hot. Is there a better sequence of events?

Thank you.
Regards,
Russ
 

998cc

Website User
VOC Member
This may help

Martyn.
Martyn,

That's good information. I sent my rods to Maughan's in the the 1980's; they fitted one of their crankpins, and it is still running today. Tony was very helpful over the phone.

Hopefully, the seats can be lapped in as I have no seat cutting tools. My guide reamer was specially sharpened on the shank end of the flutes; the shank diameter is .3105" which fits well through the upper guide. This allows the reamer to be drawn in reverse through the lower guide in line with the upper guide. Installing the guides today. :)

Thank you.
Regards,
Russ
 

BigEd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
VOC Forum Moderator
Eddy. Yes, I have the shortened guides and seal carriers (sourced from VOC Spares). The seal carriers need reaming as well, so I assume the best practice would be to install the guides and seal carriers, cool the heads, line ream the guide/seal carriers, reheat, remove the seal carriers, install the X-ring seals then re-install the carriers while still hot. Is there a better sequence of events?

Thank you.
Regards,
Russ
My guides were already installed so there was no heating up done to install guides. I didn't heat anything up when I fitted the seal carriers, I don't think that is necessary. I don't recall having to ream the seal carriers as the hole should be clearance size for the lower valve stem, might be needed if the carriers aren't quite concentric with the hole in the guide. Check that the carrier slip over the valve stem OK first just in case the parts aren't to tolerance.
Good luck, it is a good modification to do.
 

MartynG

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I had my valve guides replaced some time back - paid a professional engineering shop to do it. The lower guide was installed with seal carriers.

Since then I have replaced the x-rings in the lower guides. What I found was that in use the x-rings became quite hard and to remove them i used a pointed awl and just kept at it - the ring came away in many small bits! I did NOT remove the seal carrier. To put the new x-ring it was a matter of using a smooth thin rod (I used a chopstick) and work the new x-ring into place - its fiddly but doable. A bit of oil on the new ring may make it a bit easier.

Martyn
 

ClassicBiker

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hello all.

My first new thread in these forums. I have a question about installing sealed valve guides. I have replaced the original style guides and line reamed in the past with no problems. The confusion with the sealed guides is when to install the seal itself; if installed prior to reaming the guides they must surely be damaged. How should this be done to achieve the desired results?

Thank you. :)

Russ.
Vincent owner 41 years
(Sheltering in California)
Having just installed the sealed valve guides in my Shadow here is what I did. I installed the valve guides. I installed the valve guide retainers, snugly. I reamed both at the same time. Before final assembly I made sure that the valve itself would move easily through the lower guide, retainer, and upper guide. The way I made sure the lower guide was co-axial with the upper guide was I turned piece on the left. The major diameter was turned to match the diameter of the upper guide and the hole was reamed to match the diameter of the reamers I used to open up the lower valve guide and retainer. The face, major diameter, and the diameter for the reamer were all done after the minor diameter was turned. That way the major diameter, the face, and the i.d. are all relative to each other. The hole in the old valve cap on the left is clearance so it does not influence the reamer. The spring is an old Triumph inner valve spring. When all is assembled in the head reamer guide is positive located by the counter bore of the upper valve guide. Once I had reamed the valve guide, I removed the reamer guide. I then placed an upper guide in the head and held it in place with the Triumph spring and the old cap. I then took the valve for that port and made sure it slid through both guides and retainer easily. I gently cut back the valve seats by piloting the Neway Valve seat cutter on both the lower and upper guides. The upper held in place as I have already described. Then I gently ground the valves in piloting in the same way. Once satisfied I disassembled and stored all the parts grouped together for each port. Cleaned everything to within 0.001" of its existence. Making sure there were no traces of oil, cutting fluid, or grinding paste. I installed the seal in the retainer and applied Loctite RC 620, tightened it up by hand as hard as I could with the tool purchased from the club. I let is sit 24 hours to cure. I then assembled everything. Once I got the wires to the coils of the BTH the right way round it fired up and no smoking. Given the current state of affairs I haven't had a chance for a ride but I have started it regularly, once I replaced a leaking gas tap, and have checked that I'm getting oil up to the valve gear.
As you're doing a valve job I would also suggest getting the V3 seal set as advertised in MPH. The pdf has the dimensions of the reamer guide.

Steven


100_3057.JPG 100_3058.JPG100_3059.JPG
 

Attachments

998cc

Website User
VOC Member
Steven.
Thanks for the response. I would have responded sooner; however, we suffered a flood in our home from a broken water line. It will take three months or so to make repairs. :confused:

The new guides are in and reamed to just under .374". The exhaust guides lined up with the seats rather well and only needed slight lapping to seal. The intakes (inlets) are off slightly and will require cutting of the seats. Having never used valve seat cutters before, this is new territory. I looked at Neway cutters but have a question about pilots. Did you have to make up a special pilot to align the cutter to properly cut the seat? Is a suitable one available?

Thanks again.

Regards,
Russ
998cc
 

MartynG

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Steven.
Thanks for the response. I would have responded sooner; however, we suffered a flood in our home from a broken water line. It will take three months or so to make repairs. :confused:

The new guides are in and reamed to just under .374". The exhaust guides lined up with the seats rather well and only needed slight lapping to seal. The intakes (inlets) are off slightly and will require cutting of the seats. Having never used valve seat cutters before, this is new territory. I looked at Neway cutters but have a question about pilots. Did you have to make up a special pilot to align the cutter to properly cut the seat? Is a suitable one available?

Thanks again.

Regards,
Russ
998cc
Check my post above - it is #3.

Why not find a local engineering shop who do engine head rebuilds and see if they have the kit to do it for you?
 

LoneStar

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Did you have to make up a special pilot to align the cutter to properly cut the seat? Is a suitable one available?
Russ,

I used this pilot with a Neway cutter when renewing my Black Shadow valve seats.


I also enlarged the hole in an extra upper valve guide to .375" and inserted it while cutting each seat, to help align the pilot correctly.

Dave
 

ClassicBiker

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Steven.
Thanks for the response. I would have responded sooner; however, we suffered a flood in our home from a broken water line. It will take three months or so to make repairs. :confused:

The new guides are in and reamed to just under .374". The exhaust guides lined up with the seats rather well and only needed slight lapping to seal. The intakes (inlets) are off slightly and will require cutting of the seats. Having never used valve seat cutters before, this is new territory. I looked at Neway cutters but have a question about pilots. Did you have to make up a special pilot to align the cutter to properly cut the seat? Is a suitable one available?

Thanks again.

Regards,
Russ
998cc
Russ,

I used this pilot with a Neway cutter when renewing my Black Shadow valve seats.


I also enlarged the hole in an extra upper valve guide to .375" and inserted it while cutting each seat, to help align the pilot correctly.

Dave
Dave, Russ,
Funny enough the pilot that came with my Neway cutter did not fit the Shadow's lower valve guide. The taper widens out just that bit to much before the cutter made contact. The reason I believe is the sealed valve guides extend further into the port than the standard guides. Because the sealed valve guides do not extend upward from where they are seated in the head, they are lengthened to maintain support. Anyway, I was going to order a length of drill rod to do the job. When I struck upon the idea of using a 3/8" transfer punch. I rolled the punch on my granite to make sure it wasn't bent. It measured 0.373" so I went with that. I also purchased the Neway cutting fluid, which I think helped as well. I was curious as to how many rotations it would take to clean up the seats so I marked them with a sharpie marker prior to cutting. Three out of four seats took ten full rotations until and the fourth took fifteen. I was applying light pressure as I didn't want to dig or gouge the seats and completely screw things up. Using Glover grade "B" grinding paste (medium fine) it only took 10 minutes per seat to get a nice even surface. The only thing I didn't do was what Dave did in using an upper guide. When I do my Comet I will definitely do that. I have plenty of old upper guides to sacrifice for that.
Steven
 

998cc

Website User
VOC Member
Check my post above - it is #3.

Why not find a local engineering shop who do engine head rebuilds and see if they have the kit to do it for you?
Martyn,
That is a very good question. I wish there was such a firm locally. If there was suitable shop within any reasonable distance, I would take my heads to them. Many years ago, a local shop really made a mess of my heads. Had to send them off to a Vincent specialist for new seats, guides and valves. Ever since, I prefer to take it on myself.

Regards,
Russ
 

ClassicBiker

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Martyn,
That is a very good question. I wish there was such a firm locally. If there was suitable shop within any reasonable distance, I would take my heads to them. Many years ago, a local shop really made a mess of my heads. Had to send them off to a Vincent specialist for new seats, guides and valves. Ever since, I prefer to take it on myself.

Regards,
Russ
Hi Martyn,
I have to agree with Russ. I don't know what it's like where he is but if it doesn't say Chevrolet, Ford, or H-D shops don't want to know about doing head work here for the most part. When I needed new seats in my MG I had to source the seats myself and buy an over sized cutter and pay to have it ground to size for the shop, who kept the cutter. I also had to install the guides myself as they are a set height and they had no idea how to do that even after I told them and made a tool. When I needed new seats in my '72 Triumph Daytona head the shop I took it too held on to for 2 months. They kept pushing it to the back because they claimed they couldn't find seats. I think they were just scared. I finally sent it to the Cylinder Head shop in England to do it. That was before MAP Cycle in Florida could do the job. Now that I have a vertical mill at my disposal I would rather do it myself. At least if I screw it up I know who to blame and I don't have to listen to how it's someone else's fault not theirs.
That's why when you posted the article on how Maugan do the job I very much appreciated it. It told me what was important to datum off of to do the job properly.
Steven
 

MartynG

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Martyn,
That is a very good question. I wish there was such a firm locally. If there was suitable shop within any reasonable distance, I would take my heads to them. Many years ago, a local shop really made a mess of my heads. Had to send them off to a Vincent specialist for new seats, guides and valves. Ever since, I prefer to take it on myself.

Regards,
Russ
Even though the car/auto industry in Australia is no more (another crazy government decision) there are some remaining specialist shops still in existence. The one I use is only 10 miles from my home, its a one man operation (fortunately for me he is about 20 years younger than me so should see me out!) and he is well known in international formula one circles - all sorts of exotic engines and components are sent to him from around the world for repairs and rebuilds.

His workshop is full of amazing equipment and as clean as an operating theatre.

He did my Comet head a year or so back: new seats, new guides and gas flowed, also sorted the base of the muff as he found it was not EXACTLY 90 degrees to the bore. Turn around was less than 2 weeks - outstanding watchmaker like work. I did the strip down and reassembly. Demand for his services now so high he has shut down his web page and is reluctant to take on any new clients.

Martyn
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Workshops like "Fast turn around stuff" which is why not many like doing bike work as everything is different.........i don't blame them, it's just how the modern world is. Triumph heads are difficult on account of the seats having a taper on the outer so they can't fall out. These must have been cast in when the heads are made. it usually involves cutting most of the original seat out and then pressing in a new parallel seat, steal into steal as it were. I've had good shops who refuse to do it........ Even good second hand Triumph heads can be hard to find these days.
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I have never been able to locate a suitable reamer for guides with a plain portion for location are they available or do they have to be a DIY job?
 

998cc

Website User
VOC Member
I have never been able to locate a suitable reamer for guides with a plain portion for location are they available or do they have to be a DIY job?
There are a number of reamers on the market with a .3105" shank; the shank is a good enough fit in the upper guide bore. Here is an example: https://www.msdiscounttool.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=123575

I had my reamer sharpened on the shank end by a firm that specialized in precision tool grinding. (See photo) This allows the reamer to be drawn upward from the combustion chamber end of the lower guide while aligned by the upper guide.

IMG_1110.JPG
Regards,
Russ
 

998cc

Website User
VOC Member
Dave, Russ,
Funny enough the pilot that came with my Neway cutter did not fit the Shadow's lower valve guide. The taper widens out just that bit to much before the cutter made contact. The reason I believe is the sealed valve guides extend further into the port than the standard guides. Because the sealed valve guides do not extend upward from where they are seated in the head, they are lengthened to maintain support. Anyway, I was going to order a length of drill rod to do the job. When I struck upon the idea of using a 3/8" transfer punch. I rolled the punch on my granite to make sure it wasn't bent. It measured 0.373" so I went with that. I also purchased the Neway cutting fluid, which I think helped as well. I was curious as to how many rotations it would take to clean up the seats so I marked them with a sharpie marker prior to cutting. Three out of four seats took ten full rotations until and the fourth took fifteen. I was applying light pressure as I didn't want to dig or gouge the seats and completely screw things up. Using Glover grade "B" grinding paste (medium fine) it only took 10 minutes per seat to get a nice even surface. The only thing I didn't do was what Dave did in using an upper guide. When I do my Comet I will definitely do that. I have plenty of old upper guides to sacrifice for that.
Steven
Steven.
I have decided to order a Neway cutter. What size is best? Is the 1-3/4" correct for the intake (inlet) seat, and if so, will it also cut the smaller exhaust seat? Given that my guides are reamed under .374", I will try the .373" tapered pilot first.

Thanks.
Russ
 

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