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OP: Oil Pump Oil pump OP30 removal

Vinnie Boy

Website User
VOC Member
I am finally going to have to do something to cure/improve wet sumping. It's many years since I restored my Rapide, so my question is, can the plunger OP30 be extracted without any other dismantling ie will it clear the G50 plate?

I can't bring myself to fit a anti sumping valve, a tap maybe with some kind of safety measure incorporated . Has anyone fitted the combined tap and ignition isolator from Kingpin Components or the Magneto Guys ? Pictures of members tap/switch installations would be great and much appreciated.

Thank you.

Vinnie Boy.
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Wet sumping, I think it depends on where the engine/pump plunger stops. My bike may stay weeks before use in those cases I just undo the sump plug and catch the output sometimes its a cup full sometimes nothing.
 

SteveO

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Vinnie Boy. The answer I'm afraid is no. You must remove the G50 plate in order to extract the oil pump. If you've had it out before, you will recall it fouls the plate before you can get it right out. Both the plunger and sleeve have extractor threads built into their blind ends. The sleeve takes a crankcase bolt IIRC. You may find it quite difficult to get out, as it and the crankcase may have distorted over time. But that will be nothing compared to trying to get a new one back in! Don't ask how I know. Have a look at this thread:https://www.vincentownersclub.co.uk/threads/twin-oil-pump-fitting.12155/page-4#post-113124
for my problems! It is quite clear "selective assembly" was employed at the factory. Heat will have no effect on making extraction/reinsertion any easier, as the coefficient of expansion of the alloy case and the phosphor bronze sleeve are virtually identical.
 

Robert Watson

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Just to remove the actual pump piece you can just pull it out. It is tapped 1/4 - 20 (If my brain isn't too distorted). We have a pump here with the actual drive gear ground off that we can insert in a new build and spin without the engine turning over, to prime all the oil paths.

Don't forget to pull the pin that goes in from outside the case at 90 degrees to the pump axis and makes the pump shuttle back and forth. It has a slot head screw that maybe staked over.

If you need to remove the brass sleeve that's another whole story!
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I can't see the point of just taking the plunger out ?,
Any wear would be on the inside of the sleeve ?,
And they are made as a matched pair !!.
Some things are best left alone, As Vibrac says, It's not a problem draining the sump after a layoff,
Seems to happen to more bikes than I thought, I saw a youtube of a Triumph 3 cylinder the other day, That had "our " problem.
The plunger does wear on the gear part, But I can't see that bit making it wet sump.
Good Luck, Bill.
 
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Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Maybe you will be lucky ?, If you have a selection ?,
But the mesh with the other gear won't be the same,
Which could give you rapid wear on the gears ?,
Like I said, some things are best left, But If you want to try it, I will keep my fingers crossed :D .
Cheers Bill.
 

Marcus Bowden

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Vinnie my handsome these components are made to match I buggered up my sleeve two years ago by not removing my G50 so the plunger was already out so that can be removed. Now I have a missed match set in and was sumping in less than a month so I put a cock on the rundown pipe and a link arm on the lever to my Fuel line as I've done on Old Harry my "A" Rap as A's do sump quickly so will fit one on the "A" Comet that is nearly complete.
bananaman.
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Yes its a matched set for sure but:
Its not a bad idea to look at the plunger but you may get very worried if you do :eek: ! the gear form on the plunger get very rapidly deformed by wear but in my experience continues like that for a long time.
There was a mod suggested by one of the wizzards on here a few years back of releaving the ends of the gear form at each end of the plunger by a circular groove to reduce wear. That's not a thing I have tried but I would have thought by now we should have some long term feed back.
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I think this is the one Vibrac is talking about,
From Our Trev, Must admit I can't see what it does unless there is a binding problem,
I make SURE the pump is very free now, I had, I think 2 wear out to the point of NO oil feed in 50 years.
 

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timetraveller

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
If the diameter of the wheel which is used to cut out the teeth on the plunger is small enough then there is not a problem. However, several years ago someone made a batch with a cutter with a much too large diameter which meant that the lead out on the plunger teeth was too slow and the teeth on the worm wore quickly. ClevTrev's mod cures that and also might do no harm, or even be better, with plungers which are properly formed.
 

Vinnie Boy

Website User
VOC Member
Miss matched parts is a concern and an argument to leave well alone. That leaves the anti sumping valve or a tap of some kind. Not the valve for me, I don't see that as a fit and forget about it , more a fit and fret about it option.

Marcus what type of tap have you fitted? Any pictures available?
 

SteveO

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I think the question Vinnie, is "Do you really need to do this?" How bad is the wet sumping? Vincent obviously realised that the motor did wet sump to some extent (or could), otherwise they wouldn't provide the drain in the crankcases. It's unclear as to whether it leaks through the pump itself, as all gear pumps do to some extent, or around the sleeve. As Bill has said, they should be a matched pair. The other thing is that if the teeth on the plunger are badly worn, this will mean the drive gear worm will be also (mine was!), which means splitting the crankcases anyway, as the drive worm is inside the outer main bearing. Vincents seem to be happy to run for many years with worn oil pumps, I changed mine because I was splitting the crankcases anyway to replace the blown big end. What oil do you use? BTW the real fix for wet sumping is ride it more!
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
On some engines you can get the drive gear out, With out parting the cases,
Depends on the outer small bearing size.

I don't like the anti sump valve,

And Ted Davis had a bit on here the other day, He wouldn't let a film company ride His Bike,
In case they forgot to turn His Valve ON,
So He rode it for the film !, And on the way home, He forgot to switch it ON ! :D .
Keep um Standard I say :D.
 

Glenliman

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I am finally going to have to do something to cure/improve wet sumping. It's many years since I restored my Rapide, so my question is, can the plunger OP30 be extracted without any other dismantling ie will it clear the G50 plate?

I can't bring myself to fit a anti sumping valve, a tap maybe with some kind of safety measure incorporated . Has anyone fitted the combined tap and ignition isolator from Kingpin Components or the Magneto Guys ? Pictures of members tap/switch installations would be great and much appreciated.

Thank you.

Vinnie Boy.
There have been quite a number of the Kingpin taps fitted to Commandos and other wet sumpers on the Norton Access site.
There are also a number of similar type units sold by others. Lots of these have been fitted as well.
I would guess that by now a few thousand of these taps have been fitted. Kingpin is often out of stock, then they get a batch of 100, then they are out of stock again. There are a lot of wetsumpers out there! Gravity is a constant.

For years now, on the Norton site, there have been dire warnings of catastrophic destruction if one of these taps so much as comes close to your bike. Some of the doomsayers will start to foam at the mouth with any mention of one of these valves.
The reality has been zero problems, unless you call not having a full sump and a puddle of oil under the bike a problem.
There have been some engines ruined by the automatic type spring and ball check valves and also by manual taps installed without an ignition safety interlock. Sounds like Ted Davis had a manual tap without a safety.
Those and the auto check valves are very risky options best avoided.

But it's been 15 years or so and we are still waiting for the first report of an engine ruined by the type of tap you are considering, a manual tap with ignition interlock.
I'll dig out a photo of one I conjured up. It's a bit different in that there is no electrical switch or wiring involved, but it still disables the ignition when the tap is shut.



Glen
 
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Vinnie Boy

Website User
VOC Member
I've had a great response to my first post here, thanks to everyone who has replied.

SteveO I would say the sumping is unacceptably high and yes, If I used the bike more it would be less of a problem. I have been using Castrol Classic GP 50 oil for some years now. After using the bike, the oil drop in the tank is noticeable after about two weeks at a rough guess. I do not want get into major surgery regarding the pump, and leaving well alone may be the way to go for me.
 

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