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Oil b4 start up ? Where and type..

Domiracernick

Website User
VOC Member
Hi I’m still a few weeks from starting my bike .. but after draining all oil out bike I’m wondering the type to refill in Uk ? And how too? Far as I can see there’s the top tank under petrol , gearbox oil with a dipstick, primary side with a nut you extract to see level , and the other side with the oil return pipes to. So where do I fill them all too and levels ? Can’t find any literature re this .. 07268759-9B61-4A9D-95E1-D4EEF9A8F8F6.jpeg
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Whilst you've got the bike stripped that far, I would remove the barrels and see if the small drilling for the piston skirt feed is not too high. This will be immediately obvious looking at the ring wear verses hone marks in the bores, and the position of these oil delivery holes........very common for the holes to be too high, thus oil is feeding within the rings, not good for oil consumption. Easy to make up a simple ring compressor using a 25 mm strip of alloy sheet, the ends bent at right angles, wrap this around the piston allowing a gap say 10 mm........the end ear's keep short so you can feed the strip from between the studs after you have lowered the barrel back over the ring area........definitely worth doing while you have the top end off it........Cheers......Greg.
 

Martyn Goodwin

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Whilst you've got the bike stripped that far, I would remove the barrels and see if the small drilling for the piston skirt feed is not too high. This will be immediately obvious looking at the ring wear verses hone marks in the bores, and the position of these oil delivery holes........very common for the holes to be too high, thus oil is feeding within the rings, not good for oil consumption. Easy to make up a simple ring compressor using a 25 mm strip of alloy sheet, the ends bent at right angles, wrap this around the piston allowing a gap say 10 mm........the end ear's keep short so you can feed the strip from between the studs after you have lowered the barrel back over the ring area........definitely worth doing while you have the top end off it........Cheers......Greg.
Hi Greg,

What do you recomend users do if they find that the oil delivery hole is too high?
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
To be honest, by the time I measure up everything, the barrels are usually junk........I don't muck around changing liners, especially if the height of the muff is under say 3.020" standard is 3.062 roughly.......You can blank off the holes with countersunk aircraft rivets bonded into the old holes, then drill new ones lower down..........If you use the piston minus the rings on the conrod, fit the barrel temporarily, with the piston at BDC put a texter mark around the piston crown/bore, then remove the piston and measure the marks verses the lower piston ring groove keeping the new hole a good 2 mm bellow this. Plenty prefer to not have the holes at all........personal preference....... I generally like to run them.
 

Domiracernick

Website User
VOC Member
To be honest, by the time I measure up everything, the barrels are usually junk........I don't muck around changing liners, especially if the height of the muff is under say 3.020" standard is 3.062 roughly.......You can blank off the holes with countersunk aircraft rivets bonded into the old holes, then drill new ones lower down..........If you use the piston minus the rings on the conrod, fit the barrel temporarily, with the piston at BDC put a texter mark around the piston crown/bore, then remove the piston and measure the marks verses the lower piston ring groove keeping the new hole a good 2 mm bellow this. Plenty prefer to not have the holes at all........personal preference....... I generally like to run them.
Thanks Greg .. you may have lost me a bit there .. I’ve probably not got the skill or measuring equipment to do that job .. but scared of delving to deep into the motor . Only took heads off more as a precaution as sat for a while and was worried about the seats pitting. However yes your right it would be best practice.. let me chew over it next few days . But
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Read this its all in the search engine top right
 

Marcus Bowden

VOC Hon. Overseas Representative
VOC Member
Good advice from Greg there but to save yourself trouble just blank off your timing chest oil supply so you might get fractionally more to your cams. I'm more inclined to supply a quantity of oil to under the piston to keeping it cooler and have pressure to your cam rail so you have a positive feed under the followers provided you have the holes in the leading face of the cams, not all cams had these holes as I've just had to drill out a set, now I'm wondering weather to open up the cases and fit the suction pipe for the extra (Honda) oil pump, a mod I did over 30 years ago (on my working Rap)with another 150 k miles and still the same cams but now using a slightly larger capacity pump wondering weathering to supply under piston cooling. Have plans in doing a Comet engine "C"series and a plain floating bush that I have already fitted to an "A" Comet but not tried yet, may be on the wrong side of seventy but a Comet is more manageable than a twin.
The mod is in 40 years on by the Frenchman Herve' Hamond, I can supply photos if you want to try it and how to mod the c/cases.
bananaman.
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Marcus, these engines don't put out enough heat to worry about that........Modern's with big diameter pistons and big HP outputs yes. The extra pump feeding the cams is good, too much trouble for the average rider out there, I feel.
 

Marcus Bowden

VOC Hon. Overseas Representative
VOC Member
Trouble is Greg my bike has been my life line for virtually all my life and I do things to it to last even longer and try to extend it's working life, my son wants to carry on with it as he says it's got so much of me in it !!! Never really going much beyond standard as I can not produce any more aesthetic beauty than the two Phil's did, having known Mr Vincent and our many meetings and felt his enthusiasm about his creations wouldn't want to upset his soul.
bananaman.
 
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brian gains

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
using a rivet to blank off the oil hole sounds like a recipe for disaster. Remind me if the rivet is held captive by anything other than its deformation, This is apart from presumably loosing some material off the rivet and hence also detrimental to the interference fit when the bore is honed. I'd consider a dressed spot weld would give more peace of mind but that would still keep me awake at night. Or have I missed something?.
 

greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
The ones I did were on a series "A" barrel.......not so easy to replace as a post war one.......The oil feed holes (2 of them) were too high up, they are an unusual shape, and using 2 of countersunk rivets worked well. They can not fall out as the heads of the rivets are held inward against the mouth of the crank case........Post war ones, I generally change the assembly.......its pretty rare to find ones that are still serviceable.......Never had a head to barrel leak and any piston seizures to date.........I don't like doing things twice.
 

Matty

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hi
On my Comet, which I have owed since 1956, I simply blanked off the oil feed to the barrel from the timing cover when I had a rebore and new low expansion piston about 20 years ago.
The bike has done at least 50,000 miles since including a lot of 70mph motorway cruising up to the Isle of Man with no problems at all.
It does around 600 miles per pint of Morris Golden Film 20/50 oil, which I think must be of much better quality than the oil the engine was designed for in about 1938 and I think this consumption is acceptable.
The only real change otherwise is to have a sealed exhaust valve guide fitted to improve the consumption from a previous 200 miles per pint.
Matty
 

Robert Watson

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Not to turn the thread sideways too far but I think you only really need a seal on an Intake valve. When the exhaust valve is open the engine is on the blow part of the suck, squish, bang, blow cycle. When the intake is open it is on the suck part off the cycle.

And just to keep close to the thread. When we did the big Europe trip in 2010 it was just over 5000 miles and about 1/2 way through I added 1/2 L of oil. I use (In North America) Valvoline VR1 20/50. There is an oil thread elsewhere here that talks of the film tests on a lot of oils by a Norton guru in Colorado and it was pretty well up on the list for running flat tappet cam followers.........
 
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Matty

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hi Sorry all ==Must be senile decay for me because obviously it was the inlet valve guide the oil was going down !!!
Matty
 

Albervin

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
I shudder when I hear people saying they get over 600 miles/pint of oil. I change oil twice a year or at 5,000 miles. Maybe a small top-up at 3,000 miles if I have been very exuberant but usually nothing.
 

Matty

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Hi
My Comet usually did about 200 miles per pint when I first bought it in 1956 and the Phil Irving hand book stated on page 95 this was the expected consumption so I have never worried about it.
This or 250 miles per pint or more was the norm even after a couple of rebores and valve guide replacements over the years, and the engine was always mechanically very reliable though it was often hard to start until I changed the plug even after a fairly hard run - but it always smoked a bit.
So a couple of years ago Conway motors fitted an oversized sealed inlet valve guide and new inlet and exhaust valve, mainly to stop the Oiling up.
I consider the problem now fixed at 600 miles or so to the pint and with little smoke and starting excellent.
I have two mags - both in excellent condition with bright spark condensers so any starting problems when hot are not the traditional hot condenser problem which I have had several times before finding the "brightspark" fix.
So how do you get 5,000 miles per pint of oil when I get 600 with my modern Vincent spares low expansion piston and 2.5 thou clearance rebore, new guides, the cylinder lubrication feed blocked and a fairly hard run in to avoid glazing?
It's a puzzle - but no problem.
Matty
 

Robert Watson

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
Actually I said a pint 1/2 way thru a 5000 mile trip, so only 2500 miles per!

First thing is NO leaks, as in dry as a bone. The only indication of oil is the little puddle of milky oil at the end of the breather.
Second is to have virtually no blow by past the pistons. This by the way on an engine with 9.4:1 comp. Mk2 cams, ported heads and bits like that.. The bores are dead round and the compression rings are high quality chrome from a Honda car and well seated. (We has a small 1985 Honda civic and had to take the head of at around 350,000K kms as the gear had come adrift on the cam and I wanted make sure the valves hadn't tangled. You could still see the cross hatch in the bores and there was no discernable ridge at the top of the bores.) The pistons went in at .003 clearance and the intake guides have very effective seals. That trip was in 2010 and the engine now has around 65 or 70K on it since the last overhaul about 20 years ago, and still performs well but it does have a few weeps and does use a bit more oil these days although last year it didn't burn a drop! Mostly I think because it got zero miles on it!
 

Monkeypants

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
If ever you manage to get the oil leaks sealed up then it's best to leave the engine untouched.
In fact, once things are fairly tight and dry, it's best not to look directly at the engine. If you must look, just give it a quick glance then immediately avert the eyes.
Direct eye contact with leak prone areas will bring on great gushing leakage!

Glen
 
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