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Misc: Everything Else Norvin Rebuild



greg brillus

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#22
These TZ Yamaha brakes are nice although they are quite heavy as the hub and plates are made from aluminium not magnesium. At 260 mm they are probably the largest commercially made four leading shoe brake that is readily available. It probably is worth more than a replica, but it may need some work before use if the linings and/or the hub bearings need replacement, so you need to think about that. I personally like the 230 mm Ceriani because it is available with optional magnesium plates and this offers quite a saving in weight especially on a race bike, they are a great sized brake that suit classic bikes and they have a large intake/cooling scoop which is important for cooling. The only minor down side is they don't have the cable anchor on the plates like the Yamaha ones do, even the Suzuki 4 L/s GT 750 brake has this feature. But if you are running telescopic forks, the torque stay brackets to anchor the brake plates generally have a small extension to the rear to anchor the outer cable/adjuster to anyway. I have made many of these brackets so they fit the conversion better and align the cables correctly with no problems.
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#23
Yeah, had the Ceriani 230 since almost 40 years on the BMW now. It does its job quite well, not too strong on the 200 kg bike - but in wet weather a bit dangerous as water will lead to NO brake at all for some seconds - and then it can bite suddenly when it gets dry . So be prepared for that but then disc brakes in those days had the same problem as well.

Vic

P1040061.JPG
 

Attachments

BigEd

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
VOC Forum Moderator
#25
D
I've got a chance to buy this original Yamaha brake. Is it a better bet than a modern replica Ceriani ? Also I'm not sure of the value but the owner wants more than a modern replica costs.

View attachment 24444
Does the brake come complete with rim as shown and if so would you use that rim? If not you will have to factor in the cost of a new rim and wheel build to the cost of a new replica brake.
I personally don't see the point in paying more for an old used item than I would for a new item unless there is some particular provenance for the S/H item. If you were building something original then that could be a factor but as you are building a Norvin what do you class as "original"?
 

Rixon

Website User
VOC Member
#26
The brake does come with the rim and yes I would use it. I have no big preference for either a new brake or the Yamaha brake. Having said that, a genuine item does appeal slightly more. My primary concern is to get the best performing brake for the money.

I've looked at the replica brakes from Hungary, they seem decent and have good reviews on this forum. The manufacturer actually recommended his Robinson over the Ceriani so that's the way I'll probably go if I don't buy the Yamaha brake.

As you say there's no such thing as an original Norvin although I am trying to retain the "period" feel to the bike, hence drum not disc (don't mention the electric start);).
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#27
Well they may have banned Girdralics but the vintage club have saved me a lot on money over the years:

HUBS
Must be of a type fitted by the manufacturer with the machine. No dual brakes permitted on solos unless original specification.
 

roy the mechanic

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#29
When you run a g p bike at over 150 m p h, brakes are in my reckoning a safety item. There is no British made drums that are acceptable. Check out the latest classic bike magazine , on page 46 you will see a write up of the bike in question. I took a failed prototype and made it the fastest 500 in classic racing. By the way, I used both yamaha's.
 

ericg

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#30
When you run a g p bike at over 150 m p h, brakes are in my reckoning a safety item. There is no British made drums that are acceptable. Check out the latest classic bike magazine , on page 46 you will see a write up of the bike in question. I took a failed prototype and made it the fastest 500 in classic racing. By the way, I used both yamaha's.
For safety Roy, maybe you should also use modern forks, frame and lights and also a modern engine with a modern gearbox . Why not purchase a modern motorcycle directly? OK it's an endless debate. But anyway, I'll still try to keep my classic motorcycles classics. And please note that I didn't say original!
Cheers.
Eric
 

vibrac

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#31
Here are the three modification questions:

Will it damage the original or prevent its reconstruction?
Does it look the same as original from five feet away?
Could they have done it back then?

Number one is not negotiable (one of the others is desirable)
Number two allows eight inch brakes coil overs concentric eccentrics steering dampers and lots more
Number three allows Thommos 4 valve heads
 

Rixon

Website User
VOC Member
#32
The Yamaha brake was fitted as a safety upgrade to many British bikes in-period.

Fast forward forty years and fitting one now is hardly the same as fitting modern twin discs or purchasing a modern motorcycle. It's in the spirit of what owners did at the time.

Eric I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Use a single leading shoe Norton brake ? Use a modern replica brake in preference to an original period brake simply because it's made in Japan ?
Something else ?

To clarify - the bike is for road use only.
 

roy the mechanic

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#33
As far as the crmc is concerned any drum brake is eligible for period one. If it can be proved it was done "in period" you are ok. The only four valver to gain special dispensation was the" Mullarney" manx. As Sid did it in period.
 

ericg

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#34
The Yamaha brake was fitted as a safety upgrade to many British bikes in-period.

Fast forward forty years and fitting one now is hardly the same as fitting modern twin discs or purchasing a modern motorcycle. It's in the spirit of what owners did at the time.

Eric I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Use a single leading shoe Norton brake ? Use a modern replica brake in preference to an original period brake simply because it's made in Japan ?
Something else ?

To clarify - the bike is for road use only.
I'm suggesting that to my eyes Japanese parts will always ruins the "spirit" of these old British machines. I was too young at the time to ride a motorcycle but I've seen period photos of road going specials fitted with various TLS from British manufacturers or Italian brakes like the big Fontana 250 but never Yamaha ones. A single leading shoe Norton brake will never look as out of place as these Yamaha brakes. I'm pretty sure you already know that Norton and Triumph used to make good TLS brakes but there is also John Tickle, Robinson or even Dresda if you like big ones.
And yes, I'd definitely fit a nice Robinson replica for example against any Japanese.
I'm sure no one can imagine a Jap engined Brough Superior with a Mikuni carb, a Kawasaki clutch and a Yamaha brake for "safety upgrades", why our poor Vincents would have to endure this?
Please note that I'm the builder and owner of a Norvin, a triple engined Triton and that I'm currently persuading a Comet engine into a BSA A10 frame. Not a Japanese part on any of them and they all go and stop very well, thank you very much.
But in the end, it's your machine and of course you can do what you like with it.
 

Robert Watson

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#36
I'm guessing a T150 or T160 or even an A75R 750 triple. There was guy in town going to put an A75R in a featherbed but in the end it stalled. When I bought his Thruxton Velo he gave me the triple engine....
 

oexing

Well Known and Active Website User
VOC Member
#38
With a bit of Google I found several shops that sell replica brakes , amazingly at very different prices, for Cerianis, Fontanas, Yamaha brake too. Allright, the Yamaha is not a European brake for a "EU" Vincent, but regarding the time period it is not much different to the big Fontana I believe, so in my eyes a lot more acceptable than disc brakes on a classic. Anyway, for road bikes you have to be aware of the wet weather danger. Possibly the big air scoops facing straight to the front as on Cerianis or the Grimeca make a big (bad) difference compared to the side wire mesh air inlets of Fontanas and Yamaha, I can not tell. But then who rides motor bikes a lot in rain today ?

Vic
Molnar replica brakes
Yamaha replica
 

Rixon

Website User
VOC Member
#39
I have no problem fitting the Yamaha brake to a Norvin, particularly as it has some age. Here's a Triton with one fitted. I can't see that the appearance is that much different to any other 4LS stopper of the period.

Triton with a Yamaha Brake.jpg

Interesting that you've linked to a Hungarian replica of a Japanese brake. Perhaps an EU version would be more acceptable ;)

Actually I am more inclined to a Robinson replica but I'm going to look at the Yamaha early next week.
 

Rixon

Website User
VOC Member
#40
Regarding footrests. The bike had some rather poor quality rear sets fitted which aren't really worth re-using. I would like to try and use original Vincent footrests/pedals.

Has anyone got any complete footrests or even bits and pieces that they'd consider selling ?
 


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