New Shadow motor now what do I do?

vince998

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Thanks for the tip with the valve springs. I´d never of thought that they would have that large an effect on performance (unless totally saggy)
My D shadow performes very much the same as Ducdude has explained, although i´m running 7.3:1, MK2s, 30mm Mk1 Concentrics and twin spark ignition (28° full advance).
100mph is max (this on the flat laid on the tank), although pick-up and low down torque seems acceptable. It comes onto the cam at around 2200, pulls well to 3800 and then seems to tail off dramatically (it will still accellerate up to 5000, but it takes so long in comparison, it feels like i´m punishing the beast).
I´ve learnt to use it well within this "power band" but am sure that more should come above 3800?

With ref to running in, i´ve read some interesting articles on running in cylinder/piston ring combinations where short hard runs with cool off periods in between seems to glean the best results (and make the most sense when you understand the mechanical theory behind this practice). Important to remember is that the bedding process causes only a minor removal of material from the rings/cylinder (high spots) whilst maintaining as much of the cross hatching as possible in the cylinder for the purpose of oil retention. To "soft" a run in will most likely cause glazing, increased friction/heat generation (causing expansion) and piston skirt to cylinder contact.
On the other hand, it sounds like Duc has new bearings, bushes, transmission, crank etc installed, and i´m pretty well convinced that the "slowly/slowly approach is going to achieve the best results here.
The best running in practice for the various mechanical assemblies seems to cause a bit of a dilemma with a complete new engine. (fast and hard for rubbing/sealing surfaces and low load conditions for bearings, shafts and bushes etc.)
On another note, i believe formula 1 engine clearances are so small, they are actually "siezed" in a cold condition. The engines cooling system is purged with hot coolant causing enough expansion to free off contacting parts before starting!!
The spring thing is not universally known.
It was noted by John Mcdougall some years ago that his customer's rebuilt bikes were not performing as they ought to. On checking valve spring pressures it was found that they were dramatically below spec. Dan Smith was already using the R&D springs, so John replaced the club springs with those. Thebike in question gained about 20 mph top end with just this one change. Im not sure if Terry was already onto this, or found out from Dan or John. In any case, by the time I got involved with Vincents in 2004, Terry was stocking the R&D racing valve spring kits. Cost is about $400 vs less than $100 for the others, but the quality is there.

Glen
 
Last edited:

Howard

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Eric

This sounds exactly like my engine when I rebuilt it a couple of years ago. I'd been running Jap race reps and big tourers for some years and was very disappointed with the Vin's performance - I thought it was rose coloured specs and the Vin had never been any better. I persevered, and now it still won't scare R1s and Fireblades, but on the right roads I can really annoy kids on 600cc race reps.

I'm running Mk1s on very similar settings to you - I may be up to 260 main - don't drop the main below 250. When pulling hard on full throttle close the throttle slightly, if the speed increases go up a jet size.

BTH? I've got Pazon and I've found it thrives on advance - can't tell you what it is, I'm trying to get round to strobing it, but I know it's in the high 30s (I'm on 9:1 comp).

The biggest boost which, with your seat-o-meter type measurement, gave me 5-10 bhp, was changing the silencer. I've got an Egli, so I don't have the constraints of fitting something that looks like a Vin silencer, I just found a "free flow" model on ebay. Bill's suggestion of trying it without the silencer is a good start, depending on neighbours etc

H



Hi all I would like your input on how to proceed regarding the above bike's set up.

1952 Shadow freshly rebuilt motor and trans from the crank up
8:1 low expansion pistons
105 cams

NEW style 32mm MK1 Amals
#3 side
106 needle jet
250 main jet
17thou air jet behind the air screw

Burgess muffler (silencer)
Stock gearing
BTH
No air filters
160 miles since rebuild
Fresh plugs, filter, oils, valve adjust, head torque to 30ft/lbs at 100miles
Nice steady idle

The issues are as follows:
Pick up feels good in 1st gear but seems flat accelerating though 2nd.

On the motor way she runs strongly up to 85mph or so, at 75% throttle. It is an effort to get her up to 95mph at WFO and once there that is all she seems to want to do no matter if the mains at 210 or 250....She does a bit better getting to 95 with the 250s but not much.

Plugs are dry and slightly sooty around the electrode but the electrodes them selves are reasonably clean...

Finally the bike just does not feel lively my seat o meter says that there is only 30-35 hp at the rear wheel but all this lot is subjective.

All comments and suggestions are welcomed and encouraged..

Thanks much!

Cheers,
Eric
 

Ducdude

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Hello Eric, Thats an lot of throttle ? any chance of trying it without a silencer, Or one without insides, Cheers Bill.

Well the muffler it was..!!!!

I took off the burgess silencer and just ran a straight pipe. OH LORD what a beautiful noise. There was about 5 miles of country lanes to the motorway and then I settled into a 60-70mph easy run in top gear.

What a heck of a ride 50 miles as the bike seemed very happy. She became quite Lively and chipper. I never got her above 75% throttle on the motor way as there was no need. At 40-50% I was holding 65-70mph and the bike was happy chugging along. For a moment of passing at not quite 75% throttle not yet on the needle taper the speed had crept up to a point that said OK that is enough for today. I am pleased with the outing. The bike behaved just fine and felt stable and planted and once warmed and I adjusted the air screws to meet the needs of the lack of a silencer there was no untold carburetor issues.

So the lot of you that said Muffler/Silencer were spot on. Even the idle was happier... I really did not want to come back, but as I have been told easy does it for now...There are 200-220 miles on the motor now and she is still getting better..

So, I need a new Muffler/Silencer. Does anyone have one or know who has any of the clubs spiral mufflers for sale or loan they are not using? This would at least meet my current needs until the club restocks their inventory.

Thanks all for your help as always,

Man this is fun! (now)

Cheers,
Eric
 

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Don't you blokes in USA have any H.D.s out there , Joke !! The ones where I live all run open pipes, And my MOT man says my bikes are noisey, !! They love and build H.D.s. I have one comes past my house at 6-30 am, Every morning ,The Wife is not happy ! All The Best Bill.
 

davidd

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Eric,

I am a little surprised the bike worked so well without the muffler. The MK2 cams clearly would have done so, but the 105 cams in the past have seemed to work better with a muffler. If you aren't a fanatic about the look, a SuperTrap seems to work well and is somewhat adjustable and readily available. There is some use in having a back up muffler.

I know the Harley boys seem to get away with loud pipes, but no one else does.

David
 

Monkeypants

Well Known and Active Forum User
Non-VOC Member
Emgo makes a neat little shorty reverse cone megaphone that costs only about $50 and might even work better than the spiral baffle. It would make you legal (barely) until the club gets stock again.
I have one of these megas on the Glenli, the motor pulls hard to 5500.

http://www.nichecycle.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=80-84030&type=0

The innards are removable for racing, though I can't imagine that it would be necessary. The muffler is straight thru with packing around the outside for sound deadening.
It's not as loud as a straight pipe but not far off, maybe about 80%. If you choose to use one of these, you might want to get some moulded earplugs as well, otherwise you may become known as DeafDude!;-)

Glen
 
Last edited:

Bill Thomas

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Hello Eric, If you want it to fly !! End the silencer at the rear wheel spindle. I still think there is lots more to come, A few years ago I put a smaller carb's on, 28mm from 1 3/16 TTs and thought I would be using a lot more throttle, But in the 70s I am still on 25%, It's my old l/ning racer, Now a road bike , But it's only mk11s and 9 to 1 pistons, Keep trying cheers Bill.
 

Ducdude

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
With ref to running in, i´ve read some interesting articles on running in cylinder/piston ring combinations where short hard runs with cool off periods in between seems to glean the best results (and make the most sense when you understand the mechanical theory behind this practice). Important to remember is that the bedding process causes only a minor removal of material from the rings/cylinder (high spots) whilst maintaining as much of the cross hatching as possible in the cylinder for the purpose of oil retention. To "soft" a run in will most likely cause glazing, increased friction/heat generation (causing expansion) and piston skirt to cylinder contact.
On the other hand, it sounds like Duc has new bearings, bushes, transmission, crank etc installed, and i´m pretty well convinced that the "slowly/slowly approach is going to achieve the best results here.
The best running in practice for the various mechanical assemblies seems to cause a bit of a dilemma with a complete new engine. (fast and hard for rubbing/sealing surfaces and low load conditions for bearings, shafts and bushes etc.)
QUOTE]

Thanks Vince...

I read the same articles on running in that you did. This is why I headed down the path I did with my motor. Slow and steady for the first 100 or so miles low stress low speed low RPMs low pressure low heat. Hills and lots of gear changes 20-30 miles at a time with cooling off periods of hours or more between. Valve checks every 1 or two runs and a tweak here and a tweak there as needed. This for the bottom end and bushings and trans...

Full service with head re-torque was carried out at 100 miles or so and then a quick 10 mile stint on the motor way 60-70mph with a few high load high speed blasts to max speed then back to the barn to cool off and check things out.. This is to work the rings and the cylinder walls and valve train.

I understand and lived by the 1000 mile run in philosophy in the past and I am sure there is nothing wrong with it. I tend to think it is just a tad conservative these days. I have been burned by easy long run in plans and been rewarded with bikes that use oil till they are rebuilt again.. So, far this motor does not smoke at all is running around 150-158psi compression and starts on the 1st or 3rd kick..

Even the valve train has stabilized nicely...

I figure another oil change in 200-300 miles for a total of 500miles and I should be good for 50-100K miles or 15-20 years whichever comes first!:)
250 miles on the bike so far
Thanks for your data,
Eric
 

Ducdude

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Eric

This sounds exactly like my engine when I rebuilt it a couple of years ago. I'd been disappointed with the Vin's performance - I thought it was rose coloured specs and the Vin had never been any better. I persevered, and now it still won't scare R1s and Fireblades, but on the right roads I can really annoy kids on 600cc race reps.

I'm running Mk1s on very similar settings to you - I may be up to 260 main - don't drop the main below 250. When pulling hard on full throttle close the throttle slightly, if the speed increases go up a jet size.

The biggest boost which, with your seat-o-meter type measurement, gave me 5-10 bhp, was changing the silencer. I've got an Egli, so I don't have the constraints of fitting something that looks like a Vin silencer, I just found a "free flow" model on ebay. Bill's suggestion of trying it without the silencer is a good start, depending on neighbours etc

H


Thanks Howard...

I did not chase after any sport bike guys yet but I did eat a few Harley guys in the twistys. I do love doing that and flashing my antique plate on the rear of the bike...All good fun.
I may just move up from the 250 main as well as I think she still can use the fuel. However, it would be silly to do so at this point as I am backing off any main jet runs and without whatever silencer I end up with and the air filters I intend to use any further carb changes would be wasted.

I will just wait till I get here all together and then see what the motor asks for..

Thanks for all your help..

Cheers,
Eric
 

Ducdude

Well Known and Active Forum User
VOC Member
Don't you blokes in USA have any H.D.s out there , Joke !! The ones where I live all run open pipes, And my MOT man says my bikes are noisey, !! They love and build H.D.s. I have one comes past my house at 6-30 am, Every morning ,The Wife is not happy ! All The Best Bill.


Yea Bill we have HD guys parked at every pub when the best part of the riding day is going on. I hate the loud bikes but today I was one... It was fun I can see the allure,,,, :rolleyes:

Gotta love ear plugs..

Cheers,
Eric
 
Top