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MoT exemption for 40-year-old vehicles


highbury731

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Borrowed from the Sebring Sprite web-site:

The DFT have finally announced in making 40 year old vehicles exempt form MOT testing. This is unless they are substantially modified or on a Q Plate. https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

Stuart Brown of 3D Engineers Ltd
says on LinkedIn: "The DVLA has today published draft guidance re Vehicles of Historical Interest (VHI) that have undergone “Substantial Change”. Proposed implementation is 20th May 2018 and it must be remembered that the consultation period came and went in 2016. This is happening. Only changes to detail remain.
The draft guidance builds on the existing eight point rule system, the variation of which is not known, but does appear to lean towards being more onerous. Substantially changed classics are broadly classed as:
* Having a "power to weight ratio of more than 15% in excess of its original design, unless such a modification took place before 1988".
* Have been issued with a Q plate or a kit car, reconstructed classic or kit conversion.
DVLA today urged owners of cars that may fit in the above categories to "seek professional advice".
More worrying is DVLA proposing that "where the vehicle keeper is re-licensing their vehicle on-line it is intended that an additional question be asked whether the vehicle has a current MOT and the vehicle keeper will be required to declare that their vehicle has NOT been substantially changed since 1988. Appropriate safeguards will be in place that will prevent a vehicle keeper from declaring the vehicle is over 40 years of age and progressing to the next stage of the licensing process before first declaring or not as to whether their vehicle has been substantially changed."
The above means that if you have a modified car / bike, or modify a car / bike, every year you will be asked to confirm if the vehicle has been "substantially changed" since 1988. Ominously the Department for Transport stated that "safeguards will be in place" to ensure compliance".
So, how does all this affect those of us who have modified their bike since 1988? If asked the question when re-licencing your bike can you truthfully say it has not been radically altered since 1988?
 

vin998

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I would guess Norvin's, tritons, Egli's and any bike that consists of parts from different manufacturers would not qualify.
For an age related application the vehicle needs to look as it would when it left the factory. Disc brakes, Norton gearboxes in Comets, modern style telescopic forks on a Vincent all disqualify a bike at the point of an age related application and it looks like that is what the DVLA will be following. I rang the DVLA yesterday about something else and so mentioned the new MOT rules coming in and the person I spoke to said they didn't know anything about it.
I wouldn't consider things like panniers, 12v electrics and different ignition systems would cause a problem, but the decision won't be mine.
One question I have is curently a motorcycle made before 1960 is MOT exempt and doesn't have any conditions attached to that, it just purely based on age. Will that stay the same or will pre 1960 vehicles be subjected to the new rules?
I bet this time next year the DVLA will still be as confused as ever.

Simon
 

vibrac

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I would guess Norvin's, tritons, Egli's and any bike that consists of parts from different manufacturers would not qualify.
For an age related application the vehicle needs to look as it would when it left the factory. Disc brakes, Norton gearboxes in Comets, modern style telescopic forks on a Vincent all disqualify a bike at the point of an age related application and it looks like that is what the DVLA will be following. I rang the DVLA yesterday about something else and so mentioned the new MOT rules coming in and the person I spoke to said they didn't know anything about it.
I wouldn't consider things like panniers, 12v electrics and different ignition systems would cause a problem, but the decision won't be mine.
One question I have is curently a motorcycle made before 1960 is MOT exempt and doesn't have any conditions attached to that, it just purely based on age. Will that stay the same or will pre 1960 vehicles be subjected to the new rules?
I bet this time next year the DVLA will still be as confused as ever.

Simon
well we knew it was coming (see thread Sept 2016 'roadworthyness is round the corner') just our luck in this cae (and vnuk?) that Brexit is not further down the line because of course this is an EU directive.
So many answered questions:
*Take Simon's missive above 'related application' look like, yes but what about existing registered machines ?
*'look like' what about a different paint scheme etc etc using the DVLA 8 point rule is one thing we all had to abide by that to get an original age related number but how are those rules to be altered?its not clear.
*How can the 1988 question be answered if you have only had the bike a few weeks? is to the best of your knowledge good enough?
* what about a bike built since 1978 (40 years) of original pre 78 parts ?
* what about imported classics-there are two dates on the registration document which is used?
* what about bikes with lost V5 and re-registered?
*Already the 1988 date is being taken for all the machine whereas as I understand it the original statement referred to 1988 with regard to engine power only (see Goffys998 original thread 'This is just in from our man in whitehall' which I think this thread should be part of)

And the best question of all Who can we rely on for guidance? the VMCC?, FBHVC? BMF? our MP? old bike mart? Heaven help us! the DVLA wont!
 

vin998

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Vibrac
The 8 point rule is for kit and highly modified vehicles and "reconstructed classics" of which will not qualify to be MOT exempt. So if you consider your vehicle has to be subjected to the 8 point rule then you must have an MOT.

The MOT exempt proposal suggest for vehicles over 40 years old and already registered you as the owner will be asked to declare yourself if the vehicle is MOT exempt or not when you tax the vehicle. You will be expected to make this decision.

Any vehicle over 40 years old that is Q plate, or a kit vehicle or heavily modified will not qualify and so will need an MOT. They are saying that you will have to decide if it is heavily modified by applying the age related rules to make your decision and also based on what you know about the vehicle in question. That is the vehicle must be "a true reflection of the marque" and so that statement alone will disqualify Norvin's, disc brakes , modern forks etc for Vincents. Minor modifications like 12v electrics should be OK as they don't distract from the Vincent looking original. Things like panniers have always been considered as a bolt on accessory and will probably be OK as well, but that is just a guess. It looks like even if you have the original registration your vehicle will still be subjected to the decision process.

Not all vehicles with a current age related registrations are a reconstructed classic. Its not commonly known but if you apply for an age related reg for a vehicle which is original and all of the same year then this is classed as an age related, but NOT reconstructed and you don't need a DVLA V627 built up report. You can have a matching number bike which has never been registered in the UK or proof of the original reg is lost. So there are two classes of age related, but the DVLA do not record which a vehicle is after registration. So the DVLA don't know if an age related vehicle registered 10 years ago automatically qualifys to be MOT exempt or not unless they revisit every past application which they will not do as they don't have the manpower or money to do so.

So you as the owner will make the decision and if you say it doesn't require an MOT and later say due to an accident it becomes apparent you were wrong and should have an MOT then the full force of the law will come down on you. The DVLA & DOT is putting the problem in your lap and walking away effectively. The only way to cover yourself unless you are 100% sure will be to MOT your vehicle whether it need to be or not.

It's all as clear as mud. The decision won't change, but the DOT & DVLA interpertation of it may. Hopefully better guidance will come out in time.

Simon
 
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highbury731

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Vibrac
The 8 point rule is for kit and highly modified vehicles and "reconstructed classics" of which will not qualify to be MOT exempt. So if you consider your vehicle has to be subjected to the 8 point rule then you must have an MOT.

Simon
If you build a bike out of (mostly) original parts, but it's a bitsa, is that a 'reconstructed classsic'? Therefore never MOT exempt?
Paul
 

vibrac

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I suppose the real worry is not MOT or no MOT it is the creation of a class that could be subject to further restrictions.
* Fitting a side car is a strange area already it seems to come down to welded or bolted change of wheel track is welded and DVLA while bolted is an accessory so one supposes that continues
*Is removal of lights for a daylight MO T a major change or tyres or seat if so there is fun in the classic trials world

Many other conumdrums await and who is this expert we are supposed to consult according to the DOT? Who is going to advise with impunity when he could be sued later?
 

Chris Launders

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From my point of view having a Norvin and a Norton with an 1150cc JAP in it built after 1988 I'm going to have to MOT them, ok no problem and at £30 each it won't break the bank. Trying to deny the changes is pretty pointless anyway. On the bonus side my 1964 Dommi will become MOT exempt.
 

vibrac

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Another option in the case of rebuilt historic machines is to get it tested anyway then the system won't ask the question on line and you remain historic and avoid whatever fate awaits reconstructed classics in the future....
 

vin998

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If you build a bike out of (mostly) original parts, but it's a bitsa, is that a 'reconstructed classsic'? Therefore never MOT exempt?
Paul
Up until late 2013 when the DVLA closed their local offices if you had an old vehicle you needed a registration for all you did was get a dating certificate saying the engine and frame were made in x year and then took the vehicle to the local DVLA office. They would look over the vehicle and give you an age related registration...simple. Then the DVLA closed all their local offices and then realised what these offices did and so looked at how such things like age related registrations would be done. It was around then that the "reconstructed" term came in. Most owners call these a bitsa. The DVLA started saying that most age related applications were for vehicles constructed of parts gathered from several different machines so all those parts had to be over 25 years old and the end result had to be a true reflection of the make and model. They also said that such vehicles had to have a new 17 digit DVLASW frame number and that had to be stamped on the vehicle!!! It was and is still possible to get an age related reg for a vehicle that is not constructed of parts gathered over x years ie for a bike been say in the shed for 40 years and the old council issued logbook has been lost. These could keep the original frame number. The DVLA have never said how they fully establish which route a vehicle application went, but one pointer was the postcode you sent your apllication to:). Within the last year the DVLA have dropped the requirement for a new frame number on reconstructed classics so that cannot be used to identify what is and what isn't.
What the new MOT legislation is saying is reconstructed classics are not considered vehicles of historic interest and so will not be MOT exempt. You as the owner will have to declare if the vehicle qualifys as "vehicle of historic interest" and so MOT exempt when you tax the vehicle, an woe be it on you if you get that wrong. I cannot see how the DVLA can tell from their V55 and database as a majority of age related registrations were issued before the term reconstructed started to be used.

As I say, its as clear as mud.

Simon
 
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vin998

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Another option in the case of rebuilt historic machines is to get it tested anyway then the system won't ask the question on line and you remain historic and avoid whatever fate awaits reconstructed classics in the future....
Basically unless you are 100% sure, the best way to cover yourself is to MOT your vehicle which you can even if it is exempt. The DVLA have no way that I know of by identifying from what info they hold, if a vehicle is reconstructed or not unless you have in the past been issued with a new DVLA frame number.

You mention historic tax class. Currently anything built pre 1960 is MOT exempt and they don't have to be subjected to any other questioning. It is basically the year of built (not year of registration) as recorded by the DVLA. It looks like under the new system that will change and and pre 1960 vehicles will be subjected to the full questioning. So currently a 1957 Norvin would qualify as MOT exempt as its a special or kit vehicle made of parts from different manufacturers.
Will they be changine the historic tax class and introducing a VHI (vehicle of history interest) class. I don't know.

This is just my interpertation of what has been published so far, but knowing how the DVLA works and how age related and V765 applications work, its my best guess so far.

Simon
Machine Registrar
 

vibrac

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VOC Member
Continuing the worry of what will happen to the non-VHI machines, is perhaps the rather less important question: will only VHI be allowed zero road tax?
 

Chris Launders

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If I had to MOT and pay road tax on my Norvin would I stop using it and get rid of it. Silly question really, I'd probably use it more to get my monies worth !!
 

vibrac

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* What constitutes a special? at what point is a machine factory made? my Difazio was manufactured and sold as were 50 others at Jack Difazios garage in Frome I have the sales brochure. has it been modified since 1988? No. But apart from the front wheel and forks its a R75/6 BMW. How about the Vincents made by Harpers in the early sixties or the other Vincents made in small numbers from old and new parts and sold complete ( I am not talking home assembly ) what abut complete Slater Eglis Egli Eglis Parkin Godet Vincents etc I have some sales brochure for some of them, sold as complete (and some still are!) those were not/are not back yard self assembly jobs where do they fit in? are they not factory produced?
 

vin998

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Vibrac
It all depends on what the DVLA recognises as a manufacturer and if it is listed on their computers as such. I know recently a UK owner of a brand new Godet Egli had trouble registering it as the DVLA didn't recognise Godet as a manufacturer. They wanted to give it a Q plate. What the final decision was I don't know as I wasn't involved.
Thats an argument an owner would have to have with the DVLA.
 

vibrac

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In this desert of information another thought came to me -those in the 'grey area' could all be struggling in the wrong direction! it could be that VHI machines once identified could get a Australian? style restriction 250 miles radius and organised events only while the MOT reconstructed classics have full freedom (excepting major cities soon) Who knows? we are obviously all real criminals who deserve all this legislation to control us
 

Colin

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We will NEVER know the true situation in all of this. My experience of the DVLA is they don't know their arse from their elbow on ANYTHING current, let alone anything proposed for the future. I won't post my problems with them here, but if you fancy an hour or two of vitriolic raving just ask me for my list of their mistakes!!
 

bsg017

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I have a slightly different problem. I have a basket case D Rapide which had (still has) a seized engine when I was given it in 1989, and had not been taxed since 1969. In 1989, the DVLC were not interested in my notification of a change of ownership until I could tell them it was roadworthy. I have all the original papers and have known the bike since 1956 when I was an occasional passenger. How do I decide if it counts as a vehicle of historic interest in anticipation of an ultimate rebuild with rusty parts replaced?
 

vin998

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I have a slightly different problem. I have a basket case D Rapide which had (still has) a seized engine when I was given it in 1989, and had not been taxed since 1969. In 1989, the DVLC were not interested in my notification of a change of ownership until I could tell them it was roadworthy. I have all the original papers and have known the bike since 1956 when I was an occasional passenger. How do I decide if it counts as a vehicle of historic interest in anticipation of an ultimate rebuild with rusty parts replaced?
It's down to the description.
A rebuilt vehicle is when an owner starts with basically a complete bike which is then restored or rebuilt replacing rusty, worn serviceable parts as required. I.e. Engine internals, wheel rims, exhaust etc. As long as the identity has not changed in that it's the same engine, frame, gearbox, forks etc as it was 30 years ago then you are not a reconstructed vehicle.

A reconstructed vehicle is something that on owner has created within the last 30 years that may look correct but which is a collection of parts sourced from all over the place to create a vehicle. I.e. the classic story of "I started with a fuel cap and built this bike from what I could gather".

I suspect your series D falls into the first description. If your still not sure, then to cover yourself, subject the bike to a voluntary mot. This is after you gave got the bike ready for use on the road though.

Whether a vehicle is reconstructed or not only effects it's MOT exemption (or not) position. It has absolutely nothing to do with historic taxation class which is a separate matter completely.
 

vibrac

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VOC Member
Here is a tangential set of questions about an historic motorcycle and a small sidecar
a. for the 40 year rule is fitting a sidecar a substantial change? after all you are changing the wheel plan
b. Should you tell the dvla if you fit a sidecar or take it off (something I have done frequently with a trials sidecar)
c. according to some sidecar web sites and a man I spoke to who makes 'trolly' wheels to carry motorcycles that fit on the back of motor homes and caravans if the sidecar is attached without tools (like a trailer) then its an accessory and you need not tell DVLA, is that true?

(If it is true I shall have to get inventive with my connections)
Of course you need to tell your insurance company but what a complex web!
 

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