PD: Primary Drive Make your own Generator

BigEd

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Can't help you timetraveller - my knowledge of electrical theory is limited ...

Meanwhile, back to the issue of turning a motor rated for 3000 RPM some higher amount. My concern was not aimed at the mechanical aspect, but since voltage increases as motor speed increases, wouldn't there be a risk of frying the battery, lights, ignition, etc. when those components are hit with significantly higher voltage?
My electrical knowledge is limited too. Voltage generated definitely needs to be limited to prevent recent unfortunate experience with halogen bulbs being blown to dust when the regulator malfunctions!:(
I think there may be some self-limiting effect with generators due to saturation. We need someone with in depth technical electrical know how to confirm this.
 

Little Honda

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Tim,
Didn`t Ernst Hegeler do exactly what you`re describing? I think there were some concerns over whether the timing gears were strong enough to cope with driving a charging system.
Looked like a very neat set up but would want to be sitting down if I was asking for a price.
Cheers
Dave
Look at his website: www.vinsparesgermany.com , look there for "specials".
(Link spelling and web address corrected. BigEd)
 
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Little Honda

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Don´t confuse a nominal rating of, say, 3000 rpm and 12 V or 24 V at maybe 200 W with a speed limit . This is not the speed limit of the motor. The good old 6 V dynamo did 7500 at 6000 rpm crank speed - and that with brushes, collector and windings. So when putting a brushless motor at the same place, where´s the problem ?
I operate a three phase hf spindle motor on the lathe for a few grinding jobs when CBN hard turning is not suitable. That 48mm watercooled spindle has a nominal 2800 rpm speed at 50 Hz, 75 V. The inverter for it does 1000 Hz, so I can have around 60 000 rpm for small bores to grind. So 10 000 rpm is no big thing for these brushless motors, I guess.
Running a dynamo off the timing gears would not be a big load really, you get just 100 W smooth load at best, nothing compared to valve gear pulses. But the half time very low speed there is not great to generate some wattage. Why not keep the dynamo at its old place? The dynamo is really only the victim of the triplex chain, not the root of the problem. Most forumites will know my thinking of what causes the primary troubles and it is not the little dynamo at 60 W . There is only some higher load on the dynamo drive and motor when blipping the throttle and the inertia of the rotor is some factor. I could put the Miller armature on scales and compare it with the brushless permanent magnet rotor weight, my guess , the magnet is less weight, so a bonus for the brushless.

Vic
Vic, the Hegeler device deliveres 150W plus, reliably. It is driven not by a half time pinion, but by a gear drive
with internal gearing, which you can see in his catalogue at: www.vinsparesgermany.com. I did the testing of it by running it in a Comet (which does not need a dynamo alternative like the twin), but was the best test
bed, as a Comet is operated at much higher rev levels, like a twin. It was tested for several thousand kms,
both on a twin, as on the Comet and underwent some changes, before it was offered for sale. We did have
some break downs with the gear box due to wrong internal gearing, which was difficult to manufacture.
That has been solved, so far, and , up to now, no complaints of any sold generator since 3 years, now.
You may run your twin engine at electronic double ignition, full lights and tomtom sat-nav all day long,
without any problems. Ernst uses the free space of the dynamo of the twin for his starter solution.
This does not touch the triplex chain for starting.
 

oexing

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Thanks for pointing me to Hegeler´s pages, didn´t know the mod for driving a generator from the mag position. As suspected, you´d need some gearing to arrive at speeds for getting some wattage there. Only speaking for myself, I would never want to have another gear set to care for just for a generator. That was my incentive to ignore the then geared Alton and look elsewhere - to the brushless China motors. Just last night I had a look at some Kawa starter motor, the planetary gears appear almost identic to the Hegeler generator - just for the alternative effect - to get a gear reduction for max torque.
I´d be interested to see how the Hegeler starter was designed at the old dynamo position. Could not find anything at his web pages.
Eddy, you named the apparatus that controls the voltage in a generator system: The regulator ! So for that purpose you will get an electronic converter for 13.8 V and any power from a 24 or 48 V brushless will be limited to just these 13.8 V. There is no need for self-limiting properties in the alternator as the converter will take care for this. There is no basic difference to the old 6 V Miller or Lucas dynamos: Just wire one end of the field coils to the positive brush, no regulator connected, and you will get not only 6 V but way above 10 V when you rev it , only limited in voltage by the mechanical robustness of the armature for excessive speeds.
Self-limiting alternators and their systems are found in your pushbike dynamo, a AC permanent magnet alternator, no proper voltage limiter anywhere but limited by, well, self-limiting property. Same goes with most non-battery moped or scooter alternators, all bulbs are run on AC current at around 6 V.

Vic
 

Monkeypants

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I have had a direct drive Alton on my Rapide for about 22,000 miles now.
Somewhere in there I tried a tiny LiFePO4 " Ballistic" battery. The battery melted when we were about 800 miles from home. That meltdown damaged the Alton and destroyed the Podtronics.

I sent the alternator to Alton and they refurbed it for a very reasonable fee.

Lithium batteries aside, I think the last iteration direct drive Alton is a great little unit. It looks similar to the original dynamo, has a lot more power, weighs less, gives you a 12 volt system, and being brushless, should last a very long time.

With converted Norton dual point/ dual coil ignition ( high draw) and my new Led headlight turned on to high beam, the electrical load is balanced at just over 40 mph in top Gear.
For anything other than downhill, this is too slow in 4th, so the Alton has quite a bit more output than needed.
I'm not sure that there is any advantage to having a more powerful charging system on the Vincent. It's a bit like having a glass that is filled to the brim with water, then pouring more water in the glass. It doesn't improve anything.
Changing to a modern electronic ignition would increase the excess power even more, but that just makes the regulator work harder ( get hotter).
The Alton will easily keep up with both the headlight and an electric vest on at quite slow speeds, no problem. The Led headlight is at least as bright as the 60/55 quartz that it replaced. For safety and legality, I run the headlight in daytime as well.



Glen
 

BigEd

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Thanks for that Vic. My voltage problem is with the regulator for my 12 Volt alternator. I suspected the regulator and fitted a new spare but the overvoltage fault was repeated. When I made up a test rig with leads and the alternator mounted in my lathe everything functioned correctly. I am just going to do a double check of the components but I think they are OK which leaves me to think that my fault may be linked to one or more wiring faults on the bike that is perhaps a broken wire that makes intermittent contact.
 

Mark Fisher

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Can't help you timetraveller - my knowledge of electrical theory is limited to "don't put a fork in the power receptacle at home or you'll frizzy your hair". My practical knowledge is to throw money at an electrical problem until it's fixed. That said, if there's a way to avoid throwing $650 at an Alton, I'd like to pursue it.

Meanwhile, back to the issue of turning a motor rated for 3000 RPM some higher amount. My concern was not aimed at the mechanical aspect, but since voltage increases as motor speed increases, wouldn't there be a risk of frying the battery, lights, ignition, etc. when those components are hit with significantly higher voltage?
i can't help thinking that you could fork out the cash for an Alton and be riding the bike within a day, instead of trying to re-invent the wheel. I run two bikes with the latest type and they are absolutely fine, and yes the bikes do get ridden. 2-3 times a week and also at night to the pub!
 
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